Catapults and structures damage

General Discussion
1

Hello!

I think that the damage that catapults inflict on the citadel should be fixed.
At the moment, the damage from the catapults at the beginning is small, but it is growing at a fast pace, very much ahead of the growth of the health of the citadel. This leads to extremely unpleasant situations when a relatively quickly destroyed fortress does not provide a sufficient threat, because a pair of catapults cannot penetrate the shield of the citadel quickly enough (or do not have time to break through it, being destroyed by a group of warriors), or vice versa, later the same pair of catapults became too terrifying threat. Especially now not only the citadel, but also the keeps suffers from catapults.
I would be glad to see a change if the catapults inflicted fixed damage in% of the citadel’s maximum health. How much? I do not know that it is necessary to test, but I think about 6% will be enough.

Now about the damage of structures. It should grow over time. Yes, I understand that losing and destroying structures is normal. But in the late game, the structures do not provide sufficient threat to the opponents. If in the first third / half of the match part, the damage of structures is still capable of suspending opponents, then further growth in the total amount of health and healing allows you to ignore them in too many situations. Also, forts and keeps, in addition to the effects of slowing down and reducing the speed of attack, should be added the effect of reducing the speed of recovery of abilities (and add that effects to Core), and possibly a slight decrease in armor.
This also applies to monsters. In the late game, even completely intact fortifications on the line do not have enough effect. The health of the monsters in the late stage of the game suffers not enough from structures in comparison with the damage that the heroes inflict. I mean that mistakes in the late game should be expensive, but if you managed to keep the fortifications to the late game, they should mean more in terms of defense.

2

There is an old Twitch wisdom streamers used to teach to new players: You are there to protect your forts, not the other way around.

One of your main jobs as a positive win ratio HotS player is rotating to other lanes and defending your structures from minions, mercenaries or enemy players.

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3

Read post before comment, Shapeshifter, you totally did not understand what was meant.

4

I disagree with %damage cata’s.

  1. I disagree with getting cata’s for forts period.

  2. The reason they scale is to prevent snowballing.

I feel that early game they actually are a detriment as they passively push the xp towards the defender, but making them dangerous early undermines the whole point of the building/xp changes to begin with.

Far as buildings go, i only wish for the 3rd tower back, possibly located close to the well (while valid, well sniping is right up there with the old early game syl tower cheese). Its pretty important that hero’s outscale your buildings to keep the matches short and not COMPLETELY revolve around getting an obj. I think the late game balance of keeps is just fine (though i wont say no to that well tower at the forts :smile:)

5

That is why soaking xp , drafting wave clear, timing camps are skills that separate decent players from mid lane facerollers drooling mid while their strucutres get reckt and then ask for nerfs.

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6

You asked for forts and keeps to be stronger in late game against minions and creeps when unprotected. But it’s your job to protect them. They are the only barrier between the enemy team and the core. Defending a keep is even more important than saving a teammate’s life.

If the enemy catches you off guard and kills your keep in 10 seconds while your team has no idea how to use the minimap, the game is rewarding them and punishing your team for bad decision making.

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7

Blizzard does not want games to drag out. The fact that building get easier to destroy as time goes on is a way they encourage people to finish quicker and/or protect their structures themselves. It also acts as a potential comeback mechanic.

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8

And again you take it wrong, you persist in looking at things only from the side you are comfortable with.
I am NOT “asked for forts and keeps to be stronger in late game against minions and creeps when unprotected”.
I am asked for forts and keeps in a late game deal damage like late game hero, not like lvl 1 hero.

I didn’t say anything about making buildings much more resilient. It is a very big difference between hardening the structure so that it alone can hold back the entire enemy team, what you are saying and heroes who have by that time doubled health and doubled healing, will receive, correspondingly, double damage, what I am saying.

I am also do not lake that cata each third wave.

How? If your team loses its fortress early in that period when the catapults do not cause much damage, in most cases this means that your team is much weaker and there is no snowball, just the enemy is stronger. In the late game, especially the very late one, and such games happen in most cases when the teams are really equal, on the contrary, the catapult puts too much pressure on the teams, a couple of catapults should significantly help destroy the citadel, but should not do it on their own. And by the way, I meant to fix the damage only on the citadel, the catapults should not deal %MaxCoreHp damage to other targets.

And I agree with you, only I did not mean that the structure should be much more difficult to destroy, I meant that they should be easier to protect. I did not say to increase the health of buildings, I said to increase their damage on heroes and monsters, and when it was discussed it was mainly about the late game. In order to attack buildings without the support of warriors in the presence of the enemy, it was more risky and for the later monsters with their gigantic numbers of health, the damage from buildings became noticeable.

Hello monkey, how do you see how you can’t read, or just understand what you read?
Something I can not understand about what nerfs I an asking for? I ask to nerf structures that I was able to save until late game by giving to them more damage?

9

early game and late game hero’s. not as bad as it once was, but there was a time you could roll 5 early game hero’s and end a game at level 12 because of the power discrepancy and not because of a skill discrepancy (and i mean that literally). If cata’s were anymore than a glorified archer in the early game they could destroy buildings without being babysat. since they are weak, and infrequent, this allows the waves to delay them significantly, so that you can still fight as 5 for obj even though you lost the early fort.

10

why is there suddenly so many complaints about “forts are useless?” I swear i have seen at least 3 in the last week.

11

It’s simple, I myself saw a similar post and wrote how I think it is necessary to strengthen buildings: add damage growth to them as much as players grow.
I do not consider the buildings useless, they lack the threat in the late game.

12

Buildings lack threat in the late game because they are supposed to go down so the game will end. If the buildings scaled with the players, it would drastically slow down games.

13

I don’t ask me to change catapult damage on anything other than a citadel, warriors will hold them back exactly the same way as before, and fortifying the second line of defense will not suffer too much, to be honest, I would generally refuse rare catapults for the fort in favor of something else or did not allow them to shoot on the towers until keep is destructoed.

I doint think what it slows games signifficantly. If the enemy team is dead - the fort will be destroyed at the same speed as now, if not, destroy the fort carefully, from a distance. The point of increasing damage to buildings is not to make it an ultimatum, only to make arrogant attacks without support from warriors or mercenaries when the enemy still here are more risky, even if the enemy lacks a hero or 2 levels.

14

Thing is, they dont want games ending too early (pre 16, 15min) or to late (post 22, 24min). allowing cata’s to damag the core early like that amplifies the snowball of that game. Ideally, your beating them so badly at this early stage you dont need creeps to tank for you anyways, but in the event that you do need creeps to tank the core for you, they have given the losing team the chance to keep fighting (cata’s doing minimal damage at range). I’m kind of playing devils advocate here, because i hate those early cata’s and HOW they implemented these anti - snowball measure’s, but that what the devs went with

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15

If it is being destroyed at the same pace despite the enemy team being down there is something seriously wrong with that approach… If anything it should go down faster with the enemy team down as there is nothing to contest your team from focusing down one structure and bringing it down with ease, the minion waves / mercs should easily buffer most hits during that period etc. Adding to that what happened to your cooldowns? Are you guys just going to sit on it when there is a prime opportunity to destroy a structure? Considering the advantages you gain from doing so it shouldn’t be sat on. So if anything that structure should be going down fast!

I mean at the very least you should be stealing their camps to add to the map pressure which should more than easily provide you with assistance downing the structure much faster etc. There are so many options you can take when the enemy team is down, or cannot contest, that it’s ridiculous that you guys aren’t capitalizing on that aggressively…

17

The change in late 2018 has had catapults come earlier.

Currently their damage scales up as the game goes until, until it gets to the damage they originally had.

You need to understand the “high damage” is how they were designed to be.

Just to restate, this is as strong as catapults were meant to be.

The catapults also will not attack away from the core, and the shield will be hurt. The minion waves that spawn will be able to clear them because they just hit core ignoring minions.

If you’re taking about the core, which i’m Like 99% sure you are… this would make them more powerful at pretty much every stage of the game.

The point of structures is to prevent you from being steamrolled early game if the enemy team has a talent advantage of wins a team fight.

They’re meant to be “easy” to destroy late game.

They are not meant to do so later in the game.

The massive attack speed and movement speed reduction already hurts a ton. Why make it hurt more??

18

I understand your point of view, but…
If you don’t need minions to hold up early catapults, since they still don’t do any damage to the core, this completely devalues the catapult as an advantage in the early game. To be honest, I don’t like how the catapults cause damage to minions, they hit 2-4 at once, maybe it would be better if the damage spread between the targets and not cause full damage to everyone as it is now, although then the basic damage should be slightly increased.

You did not understand me, you did not read carefully. Keep is destroyed one quickly with increasing damage or permanent if the opposing team is dead in both cases. But, if the enemy team is not dead and reacts to your brazen attack without the minions cover, then there is a significant difference. With the current balance, causing some damage to the fortress or generally destroying it, simply regroup upon seeing the enemy and go out of the radius of the acting fortress, if it has not yet been destroyed. Result: the fortress will be damaged and if both teams meet, the battle will be 50/50, because the increased recovery abilities of tank and healer will compensate damage received from keep. In a modified balance with increasing damage of buildings, the result will be different. The team brazenly attacking the fortress pay for it since abilities of tank and healer will no longer compensate the damage so much and if the teams meet, the tank will be significantly wounded and it will not be a 50/50 battle.

Damage to catapults should be significant, but in long games (and in my experience the most impressive games with the most equal teams are long games) it becomes terrifying.

And the meaning of the topic is that I do not like what they are now, of little useful at the beginning too influential at the end.

Yes, i mean Core. But I didn’t mean to do them “more powerful at pretty much every stage of the game” Strengthen at the beginning and weaken at the end, do not forget the shield of the citadel does not go into its MaxHp.

They’re meant to be “easer” to destroy late game.

I dont thinck so.

Because abilities must also suffer.

19

Or you guys cap a mercenary camp to cover the shots / assist in destroying the structure? Why are you only limiting yourself to minion waves, when there is a clear advantage to capture the camps uncontested for cover / assist. Meaning you don’t need to retreat at the first instance of the enemy team, especially with bruiser camps providing spell armor protection in the process.

It is not 50/50 if you actually push with a mercenary / boss advantage… Which you should be able to pull off when you’ve managed to gain a kill advantage over the enemy team, taking advantage of the death timer. If the team brazenly pushing a structure is not solidifying their advantage they are simply not playing optimally.

Or better yet you push on one lane while the other lane is being pushed by the mercenary. All I see here is you not using the tools of mercenaries to actually pull off map pressure successfully, leading to a destruction of at least one structure / both / badly damaging it.

Another thing you’re completely disregarding is split pushing itself… Send most of the team on one lane, and send your solo-lane at the opposite side the map to push that lane. That way the enemy team will either have to split up, reducing their fighting power, or they focus on one lane allowing your team to make progress in at least one lane. I don’t understand why you’d omit this scenario, since there are heroes that can solo-lane and push quite well.

20

… that’s the point. They give the team that is winning a strategic advantage that allows them to win more easily, without making it impossible for the other team to come back.

They were purposely designed the opposite of what you want, and for good reason.

The point is the “pressure” you put on the other team early on from getting catapults is not super strong so the other team can have more time to ignore them for objective without suddenly losing the keep.

Honestly, it sounds like you want to completely redesign the way laning and towers work again.

Except in ways which make the game more snowball like—which is bad.

I’m open to changes, but not ones that make the early winners win more.

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