This is the right way.
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Not to point it out, but you know in that video he states at the end that Butcher is a very “Meh hero”.
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Meta? Butcher struggles to even hit 5% popularity in Masters right now and most of that is pure pickrate. I wouldn’t even qualify him as a niche or off meta hero, he’s just not really picked enough to factor into the meta at all. He’s certainly not a good hero and I think the people here talking about how he needs a rework are spot on.
Fan makes a lot of heroes look better than they are as he’s one of the best players currently still playing the game, period. He even states in the video that Butcher isn’t very good btw.
TL;DR Butcher does need a rework and his current iteration has been slowly powercrept as the years go by and better heroes are created, other heroes get reworked, etc.
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I think he’s fine as is.
Nothing is funnier than “convincing” Butcher to go vegan lol
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Like Hanzo, Probius, Samuro, Yrel, Medivh and many other heroes, who has a below pickrate than the Butcher (8%). His pickrate compared to other heroes based on heroesprofile is slightly below the mid-ground, but still higher than other heroes you would probably call fine.
For a mid-ground hero in terms of popularity I would say no, just create a new hero instead. He isn’t comparable to Tass, D.Va or Gazlowe from the past. Maybe Tass and we see currently how few people are displeased about Tass rework on this forum.
Not sure if you’re accidentally including other leagues but in Masters, Hanzo is has almost 30% popularity, Samuro is sitting around 11%, Yrel is sitting at almost 8%, Medivh is currently sitting at 10%. Probius is the only one outright below Butcher but Probius has also been a joke for a while, enough that his winrate can drop ridiculously low and rise ridiculous high due to the insanely amount of games Master players actually pick him in.
5% and lower is definitely not “mid ground” by any stretch of the imagination. Being present in only 5% of games in ANY capacity means that a hero is bad enough that they are pretty much only picked as a joke or in games people know they are going to win (someone posted a Fan game earlier which serves as an example of this).
He isn’t quite as bad as Pre-rework D.VA but he’s still pretty bad. Old Gazlowe still had access to his grav o bomb to setup plays and could be mildly annoying with defending certain objectives with his turrets. Old Tass was DEFINITELY better than Butcher due to the fact he could enable AA comps and his shields themselves were quite decent.
yea but people miffed over reworks tend to be miffed because they don’t like the changes in playstyle, not because they were made worse. Making characters FEEL good is important but if the character is garbage, it won’t matter because people won’t pick them when they are trying to be competitive.
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I saw that and i know why since I play him many times myself. He said himself that he wont have high hero dmg unless fights last very long after he got stacked.
And even if you get stacked you can still lose no matter how many stacks you got past 200.
For popularity I have of course included other leagues. It is wrong to check the popularity of a hero for only 1-5% of the players. Sure you should consider the hero balance around the top playerbase, but you should also consider the popularity amongs all players.
Current prime example for a problem, where almost everyone agrees with Falstad. He has a popularity over 80%, because a lot of players abuses him. Frog calls them “bandwaggon” players.
If a lot other heroes falls behind, who are considered “fine”, it is.
Butchers quest component could tbf be entirely abandoned and the attack speed and damage just made baseline. He is that weak
Thank you. Butch is a late game hero, If you take your time with him. He is strong. Too many people in this game see the pick and low dps and just cry about it. Butcher doesnt do dps. He is a good CC hero and bursts 1 target down.
I actually mentioned the “he won’t have high hero dmg” earlier. Which is why I think Butcher needs a harass mechanic.
I personally like the “Olaf” design from League of Legends.
Butcher throws his axe, dealing X + Meat damage to the target, but losing his meat stacks (temporarily) until the ability comes off cooldown, OR, he picks the axe back up. (Which also refreshes the ability’s cooldown.)
This gives Butcher the combo ability where Butcher can throw an axe at someone, deal a good chunk of damage, then pick up his axe while charging for bonus damage.
After reading all the comments and all your opinions that are valid from the point of view of each one that is varied, it goes from butcher is fine to a complete rework, I still think that what butcher needs are a few small changes, I play him like almost every time (even if i know i wil win or lose) and I can say that it is not OP, not even full of meat he has many counters, and his great power is limited to 1. So again, I do not ask to reduce or increase its power, only and exclusively to facilitate good players the collection of meat making it less punishing for death, or increasing the number of meat collected by the minions, or such as the level 1 talent that Zuljin has that makes the accumulation process twice as fast
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I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone on it, infinitely stacking quests are enough of a balance issue as is. Butcher, who arguably has the strongest infinitely stacking quest, isn’t going to make his infinitely stacking quest easier to stack without some drawback.
Yea but this immediately makes the metric useless. Using stats across all leagues tells you nothing. How Master players play the game and how Bronze players play the game are so wildly different that mashing them together will tell you absolutely nothing. It’s like me telling you how the 5 year olds down the block are playing basketball vs professionals in the NBA and suggesting we include all of them when discussing the game.
It’s the exact opposite. When balancing a game, you really want to be checking primarily on what your skilled players are doing. Remember, you are balancing around the notion that your players will get BETTER at the game over time and not remain stagnant (aka Bronze players will become silver players, golds will become plats, diamonds may become masters, etc).
His overall popularity means nothing. There are a lot of characters that have been historically popular in lower leagues that see a massive drop in popularity as you climb the skill ladder (Kael’thas, LiLi being good examples). If you simply mash together all the data, you’d never notice that trend. It’s why “oh well everyone thinks this” or “the majority of people feel that way” are meaningless in a game where most people are plat or lower.
Falstad has a 91% popularity in Masters with 65% of it being pure bans and the rest being picks. You need only look at that metric to realize that if the best players in the game are constantly banning him and picking him, he’s strong. That is far more reliable than mashing together leagues.
TL;DR: Using “all leagues” as a source of serious discussion is an awful practice and will often give you blatantly incorrect information at best or completely cover up certain trends that you would otherwise see if you looked at each individual league separately at worst.
He does need some kind of rework but what i dont know. Right now he is balanced becasue of how his kit is. You either steamrole or lose with him on the team.
One thing they could maybe do is remove meat drops past 200 when he complete quest and then buff his quest reward to compesate for it.
after u complete ur quest, every aditional stack you have is only +5 AA dmg… is not much for a kill, in even matches butcher usually dont get too much extra meat after quest because, i have the feeling that good players rather lose by an objective than let being killed by the butcher
honestly im a afraid about thinking a rework for my favorite character… is like a pandora´s box… i dont know if devs have in mind any change for butcher… i just hope they do the best for him dont want him stronger or weaker just more easy going, but thats up on devs… maybe they don’t plan to touch him at anything like a code in the game that says “do not ever touch butcher” or something
That sounds fine to me, if you adjust it it’s probably good.
yeah i mean i feel that butcher late game (when he is already stacked) power depends so much from the enemy team, the mbetter are the people ur fighting against with butcher, the less stacks u get in late game, is not like he steamrolling when he is already stacked
we can do whatever butcher wants - but he will be allowed only for first pick
The Butcher is very old fashioned. Unlike most Melee assassins he has weak poke and no disengage. He’s very dependent on his AA’s and his Charge is very telegraphed, so is Furnace Blast.
I’d like to see a rework on him, as a decent Butcher player is still able to stack his meat quest, especially if he works with his team, so losing less meat on death isn’t going to fix his core issues.