Assassin healers

General Discussion
42

Your calculations only work in a vacuum/target dummy scenario. You wasted a lot of time I’m guessing doing all that work for nothing. Practical application is far different.

Your only metric of qualification for his damage out put is the numbers themselves. You completely omit several important factors such as self healing, armor, ease of escape, CC, and movement speed. In a vacuum, Tychus will do the most damage but in practical application, his lack of reliable self healing, limited escape potential, squishiness, and self peel capabilities reduce his overall damage.

Since you conveniently ignore important factors in order to concoct a flimsy impractical one-sided narrative, I’ll do everyone a solid and post mine here:

1.) Soundwave knockback. Can be used to peel dive heroes (Illidan, Malthael, Tracer) off of you, extending your presence in the team fight further. Interrupts ETC powerslide and Diablo charge, negating some counters you think Lucio would be subjected to.

2.) Constant self healing. I take Smooth moves on 1 for even more healing and mana regen. His enormous amount of self healing allows him to stay deep and stay there long.

3.) Armor from slip. Basically a permanent 20 armor that never goes away that also comes with a convenient 40% movement speed escape tool baked in.

4.) Sound barrier. Essentially, four free seconds of prolonging your dive, allowing you to get even more damage in. Also acts as a safety net, allowing you to solo dive and have a get out jail free card in the pocket. Can be used every 30 seconds to non-stop dives in the endgame.

5.) Push off. Lucio’s great escape tool. He wouldn’t be able to dive nearly as deep or hard without this baby to fall back on when things get hairy. Also doubles as a nice spike of burst damage to combo with Q. Up to 10 second cooldown with the right talent.

6.) Movement speed. At a 150% speed with accelerando or 130% with smooth moves (same as mounted), you can literally do circles around certain heroes who don’t have gap closers or point click CC to catch up with you. This makes him more slippery and again, allows his dives to be riskier since your ability to escape is high.

Tychus has tools in his kit to be fair; dash (up to 2), comes with movement speed. A long CD self heal that is reliant on damage dealt at 13. Potentially long knockback with extra knockback grenade talent. Odin gives unstoppable and 25 armor.

However, these tools pale in comparison to Lucio’s arsenal. Essentially, you are right, Tychus has more theoretical damage, but Lucio has more practical damage as a result of his tankiness, difficulty to kill factor, and non-stop sustain damage.

Lucio never has to back off, never has to sit back and wait for CDs, and never has to worry about being jumped on by DPS. To be fair, there are exceptions. He is weak to point click CC like Uther and Murky. But in situations where those counters aren’t present, I’d take my lucio over your tychus anyday, even against a beefy tank enemy team.

2 Likes
43

Actually the main reason Lucio gets such high damage numbers is because his damage is bad. He struggles to kill heroes so just keeps poking away. Lucio might deal 10k damage and get 0 kills as supports heal all his damage away while Tychus might only do 4k damage and get 2 kills by obliterating 2 squishy heroes in a few seconds. The only kills Lucio is going to make are against even more flimsy heroes who are soloing for some reason, or against heroes which are already low health because someone like Tychus burned most of their HP away but lacks the chase to finish them off, which Lucio does have. This is sustain damage.

Only against teams which cannot out right burst him down. For example a mage and Muradin can combo him to death near instantly by opening with ranged stun from Storm Bolt (so Soundwave is no protection) and then unload everything on him before he can move or sound barrier. The more enemy heroes together, the more likely this is to happen.

If you are using it for that you are playing Lucio really badly. It is meant to add team wide protection, not be a soloing tool. It should just effect Lucio only in emergencies when it is life or death for him, otherwise it should be affecting multiple allied heroes with each cast to maximize its values.

Pretty much just this. Nothing else. He only gets high hero damage numbers for the same reason Lunara gets high hero damage numbers. Dealing sustained damage which is often worth very little as many heroes can out heal it. Lunara has burst potential so is a lot better at dealing damage, but the damage kinds are similar.

The bottom line is that Lucio has low end DPS. He can rank up decent hero damage (and only hero damage) numbers via persistence. He sucks at lane clear, sucks at killing structures, sucks at DPSing objectives and sucks at team fight damage.

44

Bottom line is the thread is about hero damage and Lucio can ramp up massive hero damage due to constantt AA/Reverse Amp.

EDIT
Average dmg
https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero/?timeframe_type=minor&timeframe=2.49.1.77692,2.49.1.77662,2.49.0.77548,2.49.0.77525&type=hero_damage&role=Healer&hero=&game_type=sl&league_tier=master,diamond

Average kills
https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero/?timeframe_type=minor&timeframe=2.49.1.77692,2.49.1.77662,2.49.0.77548,2.49.0.77525&type=kills&role=Healer&hero=&game_type=sl&league_tier=master,diamond

Interesting isnt it?

45

Wait until you get 1v1 by ana or our supreme overlord deckard.

46

There is no ‘bottom line’ when your presuppositions and ‘evidence’ are flimsily slapped together with barebones justifications and with zero consideration for practical application. Any point I bring up in favor of Lucio, you conveniently ignore or find some sort of excuse to skirt around the issue. It’s confirmation bias pure and simple. I.E.

“I got top hero damage” = "Eh, that damage is meaningless’
“I got top kills” = “Kill stealer”
“I roam and gank people 1v1” = “Well they’re just bad”
“My DPS is incredibly high” = “Yeah, well not as high as hero”

You then continue to pile on red herrings such as wave clear and siege damage to further double down on your lopsided perspective, pretending like the attestations you provide as counter examples are actually persuasive or informative.

The way you conveniently just dismiss “persistence” is further evidence of confirmation bias and highly indicative of argumentative ignorance. 50 damage per second is weak on the surface, yes, but 50 damage per second permanently, forever, on an entire enemy team? You can’t dismiss lucio’s damage as irrelevant just because it’s overtime. He slowly melts entire teams and unless you have some kind of point click CC, you’re not going to stop him.

He is insanely effective and diving and bursting healers. Using your own math, in three seconds he can deal (92 damage autos x4 + 105 soundwave + 100 push off +150 reverse amp) 723 damage in 3 seconds at level 0 values. That’s over HALF of whitemane and brightwing’s health, and just barely half of Malfurion, Ana, Tyrande, and Morales’ health.

But yeah… I guess it’s just ‘persistence’.

47

Yes, I like how Uther is doing more average damage than Lucio and tying with him for average kills. According to those sites most assassins average 2-3 times Lucio’s kills and deal 2-3 times Lucio’s damage.

Check MortalWombat’s links showing some sample of Diamond and Master matches. Not assassin level damage by any means.

I also pulled top level hero damage with Li Li when I QMed. Likely because my QM MMR is low (as I do not play the mode regularly) so I literally could run circles around opponents. This raises my previous point where you might be playing Lucio a lot better than your MMR matches you.

And in 3 seconds Tychus can have Lucio pushing up dazies. Not half his health, all of it. Which is my point, not assassin level damage and hence low as far as damage does.

Lucio runs up damage via persistence. His damage is low but this can add up over an entire game if allowed to. If his team is playing properly it will not since the assassins will have the targets dead during most engagements. He can run up good kills via chasing, I cannot deny that.

This is shown in the sample of 10,000 odd diamond and master games linked above. Lucio averages 1/3 - 1/2 of the damage and kills of many assassins.

48

Doesn’t account for specific instances, only a general rule. If everyone plays Lucio as a backline healer and only rarely dives for kills, that will skew the data. The topic isn’t “how does the hero generally perform”, it’s how much potential do they have at the highest possible level.

49

Does Lucio have this potential? Were your games Master or Grandmaster MMR?

If so I will admit defeat. I honestly have not seen a Master MMR player using Lucio.

50

How did you take assassin level damage from Lucio???

51

Why talk about Uther? So how does it work? Auriel yes, Lucio not, despite he beats Auriel at both stats?

52

Persistence. If your actual assassins are not damaging heroes a lot, any hero can top hero damage. I have even seen Morales do this once on the forums.

They were all pretty close. A few thousand damage is pretty much margin of error.

53

Based on few thousands games.
Still, “Auriel yes, Lucio not”. You people are so close minded its sad. But sure, your ARAM games are HOTS peak performence.

54

I will not deny. I recently have a bias to Auriel as I have performed some “amazing” players with her in ARAM. Stunning an enemy hero about to kill an ally with whip and then killing them instead feels pretty good. As long as one has a decent DPS assassin or bruiser she does well. I am finding her more and more my go to healer as she offers a good balance between sustain, healing and damage while being safer than some of the melee alternatives.

I used to main Lucio but that was long before the rework. I do see potential there but the damage is still secondary to Lucio’s support/healing functionality.

I suspect a lot of the huge damage with Lucio players are achieving it at the cost of Lucio’s primary support/healing functionality. They are sitting there poking heroes for ages rather than helping their higher DPS allies who are much more effective at killing. If they were helping allies more then the allied assassins would have more hero damage as they would be killing the enemy heroes long before Lucio can accumulate a lot of damage thanks to their considerably higher damage potential. However this goes back to one of the main reasons I stopped maining Lucio, he was too dependent on allies to deal damage. At least now he has some hero damage potential, even if it matters little in team fights compared with a lot of other heroes.

55

I just got out of a game 30 seconds ago. Once again, top damage in the entire game on top of almost double the enemy healer’s healing.

https://imgur.com/sDrzNEj

Check the time at the bottom right

56

I am not even sure what you are trying to show anymore…

Your team had a 4 level advantage by the end of the game. You then barely managed to get more hero damage than the enemy Lunara who also spent a significant portion of the game dead. Your Raynor and Samuro were clearly pushing lanes all game rather than focusing heroes as they each have 4 times your siege damage and experience earned while still also having 2/3 of your hero damage. You also only managed to heal slightly over twice that of Abathur, who usually struggles to get high healing metrics (possibly this would explain his low other metrics). You cannot even compare to the enemy healer in this situation as they died twice, had many of their allies dead or away from them quite a bit of the time and were at a 4 level disadvantage by the end.

Yes Lucio can be an annoying sustain poking damage hero. Uther can do something similar as well by going Holy Light build and spamming it at enemies every 6 seconds. If it is optimal for him to be is another question. At the end of the day his damage is still low, even if it gets a lot of exposure.

1 Like
57

Assassin healer can’t heal :squid:

58

If Baptiste ever come to HOTS, he would be one as well.

59

So I guess sustained damage just isn’t a thing then. RIP Gul’dan and Lunara. I thought they actually did good damage. Guess it’s just “exposure”.

1 Like
60

Once did a true 1v4 as Lucio, I still lost cause 3 of my teamamtes were afk and it was sky temple :expressionless:

Twas fun though, basic attack Lucio is good fun

61

no, you are wrong. lili can easily top damage charts if played right. take blinds build, and serpents build all the way up to level 7, then take dragons and you can EASILY top assassins. i’ve literally played that build a TON of times and out damaged kt, guldan, and many other mages. really, lili can do a ton of damage if you know how to play her right.
that being said, nerfing her is stupid. you are building her to be an assassin/damage and not pure healer. its kinda like being able to play varian as tank/assassin if you choose.