Article about balancing that applies to HotS

So, I was reading the BGG news written by Richard Garfield 2 days ago called “Balancing Act” It’s really insightful, and a lot of it felt to me like it was written for Hots. I’m quoting the parts I found the most interesting, but it’s totally worth the read.

There is a school of thought that preaches balancing games for the top-level player. If we had subscribed to this, we would have had to weaken the Cleric and strengthen the Necromancer.

Would the game have been better then? Maybe for the expert, who then might be able to play the Necromancer without feeling at a disadvantage. However, since many players already felt the Necromancer was overpowered and the Cleric underpowered, for them this would have made that imbalance even more extreme. It would have made the game worse for them.

Advocates of this approach would argue that this is temporary, and players would grow to appreciate the balance for experts. There are two problems with this approach. First, players won’t hang around to become experts if they aren’t enjoying the game. Second, and I think more importantly, many players didn’t evolve to an expert level of play despite playing for a long time. They lacked either the interest or the capability of playing at “top level”. In this case, changes would have driven off players who were having a good time with the game by playing the way they wanted to play.

I think this is the main reason Samuro seemed to be given a blank check for so long, and why Medhiv and TLV don’t get nerfed despite how powerful they are. Or why they were ok with adjusting Zul Jin, despite him not showing up at all at high levels. They are ok with them because of the differential between skill levels.

The option cards were, to me, spice rather than a central feature of the game. Many players didn’t view it that way and commonly introduced variants that would get more option cards into play. When playing without these rules, players often had to face the decision: “Should I do what is fun or try to win the game?” Of the several changes introduced by newer versions of the design, one of the most important is that all players will get access to option cards over the course of the game, even if they are completely focused on making correct plays.

When you make something, like say Nazeebo’s built in quest very polarizing, players will focus on that rather than what you had intended for them to have as main goal. You should find a way to make them coexist so as not to take away player enjoyment, but in a Team based game like HotS, that just doesn’t seem to work. It turns into:

Team: Hey, come help us win the game.

Player: I’m busy with my side objective.

The idea that there is an ideal balance based on the best players misleads not only designers, but also players. Inexplicably, these players often believe they are among the best long before they have played enough to qualify even as a beginner. I have had industry professionals offer balance advice for games designed over the course of years literally five minutes into their first play! I find this shocking — but the disrespect it shows to the designers, developers, and playtesters pales in comparison to the disrespect it shows the whole field of games, where a single game can absorb lifetimes of study and exploration.

Enough said I think.

An interesting phenomenon of modern game culture is the belief that publishers should adjust balance to the players rather than the players adapting play to the demands of the game. Since each play group will have its own ideal balance that will change over time, this often doesn’t even make sense. Following this player pressure can lead to games made for the noisiest players rather than accommodating a broad community.

Nail hit.

This is not entirely a bad thing, but overreliance on adjusting game balance means that when players have challenges, they won’t try as hard to overcome them — and monumental game achievements will be removed from the table. For example, one season in Magic the card “Necropotence” was dominating play. Many players wanted the card banned, but the team at Wizards of the Coast who manages the banning decided not to ban the card. The world championships had a field full of Necropotence decks, but the championship went to a secret weapon, a Finnish deck (I believe) called “Turbo Stasis”. Had Necropotence been banned, this mountain wouldn’t have been there to climb. If players can rely on a publisher adjusting their game in this way, why would they invest a lot of energy into solving a game-related problem? They expect the game to change, but their play to remain the same.

Now, I’m not presenting this as a blanket statement for HotS. I think the changes they made to cloaking was the right call. But things like nerfing Sylvanas’ “Unfurling Shadows” quest during PTR, before anyone had a chance to really play against it, created a talent that was bad from the start, because its original data were based on damage dealt to players who didn’t even realize she was stacking. (Or that the talent existed)

Or the second change made to XP globes that severely reduced the reward for skill in lane.

The term “balance” is somewhat unfortunate because it implies there is a single correct place for the final game.

5 Likes

Yep, and I think we all fall into the pit of knowing what should be tweaked and what should not be tweaked at some point in time. I did recently with some of Yrel’s talents prior to Lucifer suggesting a mix of talents which is quite effective, and probably have before with other suggestions to other heroes.

I recall it started out a 1% increase before going down to .75% to the now .5% per stack. Cannot recall the timeframe. There were discussions concerning its usage with Festering Wounds for burst stacking as well as combining it with Cold Embrace for stack shenanigans.

To play Devil’s Advocate, it is the only level 1 talent that applies its damage boost to all targets unlike the other two that need heroes to get the most out of them. The damage to stacks is applicable when no heroes are around and can result in higher amounts of siege damage than the other two talents. With certain talents and beyond a stack amount she can just wander off to do higher than normal amounts of siege damage. If a hero shows up, that be potentially more stacks.

It takes about sixty stacks stacks to on paper break even with Might of the Banshee Queen in terms of dagger damage output. At a hundred stacks she starts thumping a lot of things really hard. Once past the 125-150 threshold she can chunk quite a few heroes on the roster while burning down minions, mercs, and structures faster than she otherwise would.

Against bots it is not hard to get such stacks unless the A.I team has the appropriate heroes to pressure Sylvanas and/or they are Elite.

However, at 1%, that slashes the thresholds in half: thirty stacks to break even with MoBQ, fifty to start chunking things, seventy to turn half of some hero health bars grey, and beyond one hundred it would get nasty.

Granted, against players it could get shut down, but unlike pre-Butcher trait quest or Alarak Sadism, she does not lose stacks, and at 1% if allowed to she would snowball hard late game.

Thing is as well, there are a lot of talents that synergize with it, allowing the Sylvanas player to cushion some of the drawbacks to picking it in the first place.

Increasing it to .75% might be okay, but I think in places like ARAM or QM putting it at 1% would result in her running roughshod over unaware players or those incapable of dealing with a Sylvanas that gained a sufficient number of stacks.

Might be better to just have it increase her trait’s damage boost by 1%, up to 5%, for every 25-30 stacks and if necessary put a death penalty on it similar to Hanzo’s Redemption. Or have a gamit bonus like Valla’s Creed of the Hunter where, if still using the trait bonus, starts out at 30% or higher but loses a bit of trait damage bonus any time she goes night-night.

That is my take on the talent anyways. I could be completely wrong and that pushing it up to 1% would not be a big deal against players.

Also of note, I think the MMO game Wildstar is a good example of what happens when the developers cater to the top echelons of players and not the more casual playerbase.

3 Likes

To be honest, there’s a middleground between ‘balancing around pros’ and ‘balancing around hots-casuals’, that other MOBAs have heard of, but this one didn’t. It’s called ‘having easy heroes and hard heroes, that are both viable’. I’d argue devs didn’t know what ‘easy’ means (long cds on heal and armour isn’t it, sorry, and neither is half the kit’s power being a blind, or a root), nor what ‘viable’ means (I wish them fun playing the ‘easy’ heroes and having success).

And, to the best of my knowledge, things have been simplified even without community request. In my opinion, it looks like the aim wasn’t even to balance winrates of heroes, but to balance pickrates (some evidence of this is that overwatch 2 has had the same syndrome, at least first 6 months, before I quit it).

And all this is just the tip of the iceberg. I wrote a 7-page list of everything that was probably a mistake, and what could be done better, on the EU forum. Sadly idk now if I am allowed to repost it here, or it counts as spam (didn’t know EU forum is totally dead before making my first post).

1 Like

Well, I really hope this idea of not catering to top-level players is why some heroes seem too good still. When I play them, I don’t really do anything, but playing against them, they can seem to be the one hero in the match that shuts down your whole team. I’m thinking of D’Va and Valeera, but there are a few more.
Then you have the other side of things. Like I never play Kael-Thas unless he’s the least undesirable pick in ARAM, and when that happens, I usually get top stats in all categories and feel like I never even had to put myself in danger.

2 Likes

Keep in mind, Sylvanas had a bug on the talent that caused you to gain a stack the moment you cast W on your target. Though that only gave you one extra stack per cast. But maye in their numbers it made a difference. (This was fixed Sept. 2023)

Before he was nerfed ETC was pretty easy to play and efficient at all levels. So was Li-Ming.
We used to have more ,but chages to heroes shifted that. And the ONE time that Raynor was actually good, he was nerfed to uselessness. (And I wish they had given him a chance to be played without his Hyperion bug before they nerfed him)

No, between two different forums it wouldn’t count as spam. You should post it.

3 Likes

I don’t think that would be a sufficient reason, but without experimenting with the full sauced out version of Unfurling Shadows, I do not think anyone truly knows.

It is one thing to write theory on it and quite another for the talent to be tested against players in QM, ARAM, ranked, and vs A.I.

Though I can safely say if I were to get on tomorrow and saw they doubled it to 1% I would be having a field day against the A.I.

very good article, just wanna bring up some points I think they (and some of the posters here) haven’t considered.

Sometimes there has to be a final balance to a game, whether that’s the end of development for a game like this one, or a single-player game sent out to sea, or what have you. Balance is somewhat nebulous, yes, but the goal should still be to hit the must equilateral position on that possible scale. Should a compromise need to be met, I’d rather see more difficult characters/actions have a higher reward than simpler characters, especially in a game like Heroes of the Storm.

A good example of this is in game (between two separate Heroes) is Tracer vs. Genji. Both fulfill a similar dive + range squishy playstyle, but one (Genji) is wildly more difficult to play well than the other. Genji has one of the worst win-rates in the game below Masters, but spikes up to S-tier at Masters and GM rank due to the level of skill expression capable with the kit. Tracer in the other hand remains at a fairly consistent winrate across ranks due to both a lower skill floor and a lower skill celling (relatively speaking of course).

Of course, Heroes fails at this fairly often too. Qhira has a poor win-rate across the board and is overshadowed both at high ranks (Alarak, Maiev, and Kerrigan all do better than her at her role) and at low ranks (Butcher, most Bruisers). Li Li is just strictly a weak pick no matter what you want from your healer.

While we are oddly enough seeing some changes here and there to balance, most things are set in stone. For the most part, Heroes has a very acceptable “final balance” with a few poor exceptions (Nova, Valeera, Li Li, and Qhira being the main ones I can think of off the top of my head). Nothing is blatantly OP at all ranks, and even for rank floor/ceilings things never get too broken (the closest I can think of is Bronze league Naz and GM Genji tbh).

Now on the other hand when you remove something skill testing and give blatantly overpowered benefits to counteract the nerf that’s a whole other issue. Samuros’ hearth-swap was a very important skill to learn, and generally quite difficult to pull off. Then it got cut “as a bug” (even though it was earlier re-added and explicitly told was a feature) and Samuro got a compensation buff of a 3x of his self-sustain. Not only is hiding around in wind walk far less skill-testing that pulling off hearth-swap, its’ also way more flexible and generally broke the character across all skill levels.

I think it’d probably be fine in ranked/QM but it’d be very broken in ARAM (and vs. AI). In ranked/QM the initial power boost of your level 1 is very important to start snowballing. Giving that up for a theoretical damage spike in the mid-game is very winmore.

While Wildstar did suffer from that (that stat page was a nightmare to navigate), its’ real problem was Scope Creep. Was one of the worst example of scope creep I’ve ever seen at this moment.

edit: apparently im very wrong because as of last patch Tracer has the third highest WR in Masters (58.2%) where Genji is only slightly positive (53.2%)

2 Likes

I wouldn’t call HotS “set in stone” until the devs completely stoo touching it. We have enough changes that I can’t say we can call it final. I mean, we’ve gotten new talents for Arthas, big changes to Auriel and Blaze. Those were too large to complain that the game is in stasis.

I remember from my experience as a new player that Lili was considered very powerful and picked a lot. Even banned in ranked. Giving an inexperienced player a character that only requires you to hold a key, and press R when things look bad goes a long way towards helping them bring value.

I am ignorant. What is scope creep?

What is the pick rate?

continuous or uncontrolled growth in a project’s scope (that being, what the project actually is and what it entails), generally experienced after the project begins.

For a game that usually ends up being like “ooh, lets add this extra mode! and player housing! and four unique sideways leveling systems! and advanced PvP stats! and new mounts! How about three different types of mounts! and also a pokemon battling parody! etc”

3 Likes

I see what you did there.

1 Like