ARAM players who play blame game - I'll pick who I want

General Discussion
21

There are no “trap” talents on Morales. All her talents have an above 50% win rate. There might be worse talents for players that don’t understand her kit, but that player would likely struggle with Morales regardless of what talent they chose.

If you mean quest talents, I almost always go grenade whether I’m in ranked, ARAM, or QM. It’s especially easy to complete in ARAM and synergize with other talents more quickly because of more opportunities for grenade to hit more enemies. Grenades also generate energy.

22

For the reasons I mentioned earlier, you pretty much have to max her healing sustain to be of use. Healing is the only thing really going for her that is reliable and so if you cannot do that due to being out of resources you would probably be better off picking another hero. You cannot rely on allies to withdraw from combat when you are low on energy, and you cannot rely on allies to not cluster together and be hit by AoE moves.

This is in contrast to heroes like Stukov who have infinite group healing early in the game (~0 mana usage with the appropriate talent picks) while still hitting like a truck (high tier AA damage) in melee range.

I have seen many ARAM games where heroes like Stukov and Brightwing massively out heal Morales. Both those heroes have more damage and CC abilities than morales. Sure her single target healing is superior, possibly one of the best in HotS, but by the time she has healed one person, those heroes have healed the splash damage off everyone else and even healed Morales because Morales cannot efficiently heal herself unlike both those heroes who’s heals are fully self targetable.

23

a tl;dr on a stat filter doesn’t distinguish between games where the team won an uphill battle despite the picks, a 5-stack that stomped regardless of talents, or a smurf sitting afk at base, among other variables.

https://heroesprofile.com/Player/Matchups/?blizz_id=223062&battletag=Xenterex&region=1&game_type=&season=&game_map=&hero=
(tldr link is out of 115 games with an allied medic, 56% of those are loses and does not convey how frustrating those games can be)

For what sampling HP has, I could point out how medic is one of my worst allied matchups. It’s not complete hyperbole when I’m under the impression a medic is more likely to save an enemy than a teammate, and be the embodiment of carbot gags, reddit memes, and so on. Since HP is only a sample, I’m pretty sure the actual percentage in my gameplay history is worse than that.

Putting the energy-recovery on the quest talent has helped, but of the players incentivized to take it, my experience has been that it’s doing them more harm than if they hadn’t taken a talent at all.

Online experiences may vary, but it’s probably select key players that keep the % “above 50” and it’s likely to be despite the choice unless it’s a pubstomping group that actually want the extra detonation distance for combos.

1 Like
24

No, you don’t. Again, you’re attributing your arbitrary views that aren’t really based on anything as a universal truth. I play with grenade build all the time and do just fine, and as the stats seem to indicate as well, most other people do too.

A BW and Stukov will always have more healing than Morales, because a lot of her damage is from mitigation with safeguard and preventing damage in the first place by grenade displacement. If she goes safeguard build (except for medidrone), that will be even more pronounced on the stat screen, but that doesn’t make her less effective.

Stukov, Morales, and BW are pretty much neck and neck in terms of win rate in ARAM. If you actually look at the last 4 patches, she seeks out ahead the other two. You’re just mistaking overall heal output for actual effectiveness.

Regardless, the scenario is healer vs no healer. You can make that choice with your own advantage and disadvantages. But your reasoning as you state them are not only poor, they’re wrong for the general population that pick Morales in ARAM.

And yet, it happens all the time. I don’t know what to tell you.

The fact that it’s your worst matchup doesn’t align with the general sampling. If that’s your experience, that’s your experience, but saying things like trap talents based on that makes zero sense. The level 1 talent isn’t just detonation distance, that combos with more coverage for your 13 talents. It also allows you to throw more grenades out which aside from the general usefulness of displacement, also increases shield/energy generation.

25

You absolutely can pick who you want. And if the community/your team decides to blame you and report you for nonparticipation, they can absolutely report that.

26

Drawing a conclusion that aligns with my observation is how sense is made. You might not have thought it through, but reasoning is based on consistent experience. If select talents incentivize particular conduct – taking an aa talent to thus attack more, taking a skill-talent to hit that skill more often – and select conduct is undesirable, then it “makes sense” that someone’s experience would get them to conclude that something is a ‘trap’ by causing them, or their allies, to perform worse than they theoretical would with a different incentive.

Having references to reddit memes or carbot slips also indicates that others have experienced/observed similar behavior, so it’s not statistical outlier with a conclusion drawn from unrelated elements.

Now I haven’t scrutinized all however many hundred games with medics over various patches to compare grenade-builds with any other build (as it doens’t have to be grenade specific to toss disruptive grenades, it’s merely building for it likely increases the frequency of ability spam) but the conclusion drawn can be seen as a claim of cause-and-effect, so it’s not without “sense”.

That turn of phrase is generally better suited for those who aren’t willing to actually think through something, so it’s ‘zero effort’ rather than ‘zero sense’

27

You’re right, zero sense is probably not the best choice of words. It makes sense from your point of view. It’s just for me, I personally would have checked the data to corroborate a hunch, especially to use a term like trap talent.

The experience of having grenade annoying you is not exactly a unique experience. So the fact that there are common stories that come from that is not at all surprising. It happens to me too, but it’s a very narrow band of an experience that is often decoupled from the benefits that grenade grants.

It’s funny you brought this back up, because I recently had a game that reminded me of our discussion. There was a player who was brand new to KT. He was very concerned with completing his quest, so of course the times he saw my grenade get in the way of that, he was justifiably annoyed.

They asked me to stop using grenade after a couple minutes in. I told him, sorry, deal with it. He said it’s preventing me from completing my quest. I said I don’t care. I quickly used my social agility to clarify, I mean I do “care”, but sorry, I’m still using them.

The problem with his complaint was, again, he was honing in on a very narrow experience. This is exactly confirmation bias. And while he may have recognized the times grenade saved him personally, he probably didn’t recognize the many times it saved other people, or the times in which the grenade pushed people back in range so he could get his skill shots in, or the slow on enemies which allowed him to aim his chains more easily which would allow him to complete his quest sooner or the times I was able to survive being focused because of the shields I got from grenades, which then allowed me to heal my team more efficiently/be more aggressive, or how I pushed people into his nova, or how after he landed his combos, I pushed enemies closer to us to finish the job. We ended the game like 27-3, with the KT still easily completing his quest pretty early where he topped damage.

So while yes, I probably screwed with a few cases of messing up his skill shots, I know I also helped them too, and helped in many scenarios in which it had nothing to do with his skill shots but still helped win the game.

28

Keep crying, clown lol. (easy for you to do since you can’t shut your mouth)

Also, you like to use the word “nuance” and your posts are anything but nuanced. gg, nice try.

This like your 5th reference to social agility or the accurate meme (correct btw) ever since our last conversation.

2 Likes
29

I can look at the play in the game I’m in and consider opportunity costs of a player’s actions to estimate moments where they could get more energy/hits/heals with different talents and choices, esp since it’s not uncommon for players to take talents that don’t actually suit how they are playing. “trap talents” aren’t strictly ones that have to have the worst performance, they just have to effectively make the player ‘weaker’ due to opportunity cost.

Looking at stats doesn’t define conclusions or replace observations; it’s a tool to use that is limited by available information. Without other filters and replays to monitor why certain stats fall as they do, winrates do not indicate much and people can very well win with a ‘handicap’ by either playing in stacks, playing matches that didn’t choose a healer, getting a favorable matchup (e.g stim zj) or a number of other variables that could effectively boil down the choices of talents chosen as negligible in any number of games.

A number of other healers that don’t ‘change’ much with their talents also have middling stats in HP for ARAM that don’t deviate all that much as a bigger difference is probably more reliant on the tank/assassin choices than how successful someone can land a grenade combo or peel an ally at a ‘clutch’ moment. While medic is capable of making plays, her ability to contribute is probably better defined by lvl 10 than much else she does in aram, quest or not.

If someone wants to script a parser to use more detailed sampling for building correlations between builds, grenade-assists, or a myriad of other details to tl;dr generalize performance by the specific hero, then I"d be more inclined to care about stats, but otherwise aram is a spamfest of forgivable qualities that aren’t so “zomg we lose now” as people will proclaim in their game before they try to rationalize why they should afk/throw/whatever to ‘prove’ their point.

30

Looking at stats of course don’t define conclusions or replace observations, but when you have data that actually takes samples from a larger population than the individual, they’re an extremely helpful tool to see if your observations actually have legs or could be off base.

Now, you say your own stats seem to indicate Morales is not a great ally in ARAM, so that’s your experience, which I respect and is what it is (especially if you actually upload all your games), but I wouldn’t extrapolate that as a general conclusion because those samples sizes are so tiny compared to what HP aggregates. And even then, your experiences wouldn’t necessarily indicate anything about how much better a Morales would have performed if they didn’t go grenade talent.

Honestly a lot of what you wrote about possible explanations just sounds like a lot of cope to basically say I can’t prove it, so I’m going to hand wave the stats away and in that vacuum, my intuition has more authority. It’s not like someone giving up in ARAM would be unique to Morales who use grenades. That just seems like an arbitrary filter even if they had one.

I mean sure, you can give a bunch of possible explanations why a talent performs the way it does, but you can basically apply any number of similar or different “explanations” to any other talent. Even then, I just would find it weird that somehow you would think a talent that already has good parity in the other modes would somehow suddenly be a trap in ARAM where you actually have more opportunities to complete and take advantage of.

If you pick a talent and it doesn’t significantly hinder your chances of winning, then I wouldn’t consider it a trap talent. Grenades are the highest performing of the three on the tier. Like I would think a talent like AntiHealer on Ana which is the most picked and also a significantly lower win rate is a trap talent. Grenades just don’t fit that bill.

31

Here I immediately recall the series about the woman Hulk, which is the clearest example of the praise of women through the humiliation of men, as if there are no strong women without it. And yes, there are only 2 species :smile: :smile: :smile:

1 Like
32

“The needs of the many are more important than the needs of the one.” Folk Russian-Vulcan wisdom.

33

Humans and dogs (the animal kingdom and cats don’t exist anymore).

4 Likes
34

You forgot to quote the emojis.

Nothing funnier than missing the mark and then doubling down on it with emojis lol.

2 Likes
35

did some googling and i think thats just a startrek quote so at least the Vulcan part is correct : p

36

That’s sad, and pathetic.

37

no its him being exciting
it’s only sad and pathetic if he constantly goes on about it all the time

1 Like
38

That’s literally every post they make though.
At one point or another, it always turns into “I’m so excited for Diablo Immortal 2”.

39

then in future state that just calling him sad and pathetic without elaborating is trolling, regardless of the situation. not with out context

40

There are several posters hyping up D4, I’m going tin foil hat and have reached the conclusion it’s viral marketing by Blizzard.

If only they had bothered to advertise Hots in any manner outside the HGC, maybe it wouldn’t be in the sad state it’s in now.

3 Likes