Analysis video : reducing the skill gap in a game

hi everyone,

here is some quick back ground on how i got to this topic and video lol
a while ago i had seen a very interesting video on youtube that talks about what i beleive is a very important point in any multiplayer / pvp based game ( of games in general ) and it happened to be in my recommendations again, so i thought of watching it again .

i find even though this video talks about a completely different genre of game , the there are still many similarities that can still be linked to Hots. i noticed that here and there we had people requesting “easier” features like auto stutter stepping/kiting and such or auto combination ( like if you land your W , your Q will trigger on its own kinda thing , yup, someone requested for that a while ago )

we have also noticed changes in the game to fit that “easier” on the players too.

how many characters got changed for the simple fact that lower skilled player had issues playing vs them ? ( “unfun to play against” ) .
many characters got streamlined to be simpler to understand too or lowering the skills required to play effectively.

even the whole experience globe was an experiment to help players who still didnt understood that by being close proximity of the minions upon death they farm XP for their team !!

here is my big question, what if the skill required to play Hots was increased ? would you see it as a positive or a negative ? and why ?

here is the video and let me know if it changes your oppinion on the matter ! :+1:
( i know its a street fighter video , but i beleive the concept of the idea still applies )

personally, i beleive that a higher skill cap does pushes a community to improve by always makes it much more entertaining to watch as well when you know all that is required to play at high level ! ( which is why i love watching sc / sc2 tournaments )

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Positive.
After globes changes I was thinking that it will be impossible to play TLV. But… I was wrong.

After relearning and and study how to soak again as TLV my winrate increased on them actually.

I dislike when heroes, like Chromie, Whitemane get reworked to low their skill cap. I hate it.

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Bad thing. The main reason being that since there is nothing to teach players about several mechanics in-game. Raising the skill gap would mean even more clueless players. These players would eventually give up, and then this game would be a ghost town.

First I have to say that the video (Which I have watched before as I was a SF player) is biased. From the point if view of someone that has put tons of hours into the franchise. They believe that other players should have to go through the same difficulty and effort that they did for everything.

There was a game called Mod Nation racers. This game had a challenge mode that unlocked parts for user created content like karts and race tracks. The challenge mode was SUPER hard. You had to fill conditions (some being based almost entirely on luck) while also coming in first place. Sony after a while lowered the requirements because it was just dumb.

But then, the players who had already completed them, complained. Solely because they had completed a harder challenge. (Note that they didn’t like it, but still thought other players should have to go through what they did.) I completed them myself. But I don’t care that someone else can do it more easily. They can always chose to try to get first place. It doesn’t take away what I already have.

No matter how much they reduce the difficulty of move inputs, no rookie player would beat Daigo. I mean, inputs in Super smash couldn’t be simpler. But if you play 100 games against a pro, you will end up 0-100.

A lot of this has to do with players not wanting things they are used to to change. And there’s a lot of elitism in the SF community (or classic fighting games communities in general)

The video also talks about focusing heavily on the game’s most dedicated players. But those players are the minority of the games population. So if you want the game to be financially viable, you can’t do only that.

Or you could, you know, create two different games. Have one be free, and the other full price. But I doubt full price MobAs are ever going to be a thing.

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One good thing about raising the skill cap (=making individual heroes even more powerful if played perfectly or beyond perfection) is you could make up the difference for afk or disconnected players with exceptional solo play.

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The game has been marketed for a certain audience of casuals that pretty much made any sort of “high skill cap hero” getting consistently nerfed to the ground.

If you want this to happen we have to start by making the entire game hard to get into in the first place, which currently is very unlikely to happen to begin with because:

  1. That’s Blizzard for you, compared to Valve which majority of their games are consistently hard to get into.
  2. Game has been built from ground like that with pretty much streamlining MOBA mechanics e.g shared XP and no gold shop type mechanic, which I don’t mind anyways besides the point they have been continuously making it easier for everyone.

We are stuck with borderline boring heroes to watch that are consistently stronger than heroes with much flashier mechanics, where majority of them also fall in the AA department.

Unfun against is a mistake that is flawed because fun by itself is completely subjective, every time we see a rework we end up with hero identity completely obliterated or becoming so borderline easy & boring while reaching levels of OP, or making them even more unfun to play with/against than before (Hammer).

In other words, balancing around feelings has been very poorly for a lot of heroes.

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Core-A Gaming is an absolutely EXCELLENT channel. That being said, this video is more along the lines of why reducing the skill gap is bad, NOT why raising the skill gap is good. The problem with HOTS is that the skill gap has been constantly reduced via devs applying nerfs that make certain heroes and certain options worse, making draft less diverse and reducing the ability of better players to express themselves. Most of the time, these are done to appease bad players.

I’d go as far as saying that it has been reduced by such a large amount that Drafting and Hero Builds don’t matter as much until Masters because mechanical skill and macro skill are some of the few things that haven’t featured a reduction in the skill gap, meaning they are almost exclusively why people in Masters and GMs can do Bronze challenges and climb even with mediocre heroes and mediocre builds.

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I don’t know. I mean. Since the bot is by definition worse than an average player. having a bot is like raising the skill of the enemy team.

I can’t imagine a system that would let a player win with a missing player.

Most heroes got something nerfed at some point. Even Raynor and Lili.

Besides, you could nerf some heroes as much as you want, and masters will always beat bronze players. Easier hero mechanics don’t give you better macro.

That’s not my point in the slightest but ok then.

I didn’t see it then. I mean, TLV never got nerfed. Not directly. Aba nerfs had nothing to do with making him easier to play. And Zera is still ahrd to play and consistently banned in division S. Those are the hardest heroes I know.

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For tl;dr terms, some people like to associate higher skill as being better than having lower skill. However, when it comes to games, people can enjoy high or low skills, the functional concern is the relative reward for the relative skill. How well does a game encourage its players to excel?

Part of the issue for HoTS over the years is that it hasn’t had the desired levels of reward-to-skill. Some of that is seen in the team xp/share, or getting dragged down my the lowest skill player – or the reverse in demanding to carry – the quality of concern isn’t specifically the skill, or specifically the reward, but the interaction between the two.

One of the hardest things for a game is to lower the reward yield a player receives. IF there is a disproportion between reward and skill, lowering the reward is seen as a bad thing even if it brings it overall into a better yield for the expected level of ‘skill’ for a game. So if the reward is already at a certain value, it can feel better to ‘raise’ the skill needed to earn that reward instead.

(though for players that don’t rise to the gap chance, it’ll still feel like a loss of reward to them)

Per example, but as an aside, I do follow some events for speedgaming; when I spectate something, I like to watch things that I don’t want to put the time into developing myself. Super Metroid is a strong speed running game and a solid number of categories played have a good balance between skill needed per reward received such that its appealing to play, and appealing to watch. However, some categories allow tricks that make ‘beating the game’ easier, and faster, but it’s too ‘rewarding’ per the skill to use that it’s not as enjoyable to watch. Similarly, there are lots of tricks that are very difficult to use, but they don’t save enough time to be worth learning to do them, so they lack rewards to incentive players to learn them outside of a showcase demo.

So on two different spectrums (spectator and player) there can be imbalances between skill and reward for that skill.

A good chunk of HoTS game had a bad design dip that overly rewarded the wrong things. While adjusting some of those things has made things ‘healthier’ for the game, many players see a diminished reward and not a ratio-to-reward relation.

While it could feel better to have a higher skill gap, the concern is that the reward relative to that skill gap needs to be better. Some heroes are ‘rewarded’ for mindlessly spamming abilities and people only ‘succeed’ because they can try that many more times compared to other picks.

As such, some people only ever learn to use abilities because they’re up, not because it’s the right time to use them. Resource management is a key element for trying to offset mindless rotations, and unfortunately, enough heroes have gone without sufficient consequences for their skill spam that it then makes other heroes look bad by comparison.

Zarya isn’t really a ‘hard’ or ‘skilled’ hero, but she has clear lines on when she’s rewarded. She could use her abilities at any given time, but if its not at the right time, she won’t soak damage, build energy, and generate the numbers she needs to contribute. In that regards, she has a good indicator for application of effort and the indicators for rewarding that. Players that don’t learn the ‘skill’ to use opportunities well end up energy starved and become dead weight.

Part of the issue of say, Genji, is that while some call it hard to succeed with him, he’s really not a hard hero to use: he gets rewarded for chain-spamming his combo and just getting back out. As such, enough players get enough a ‘reward’ to mindlessly go in, use everything & run, that it drags the performance of the hero down. The relative power of his kit is not design well-enough to incentivise the right kind of reward for the skill needed to earn it.

As a consequence, he oscillates between ‘too good’ (invalidating other heroes) or ‘too bad’ and becomes a direct liability.

So in that way, some of the ‘lowering’ of the skillgap had hurt some of the design elements and end up rewarding the wrong stuff, and it teaches bad habits to players rather than incentivise better play.

The ‘gap’ can be reduced, but the challenge, skill to meet the challenge, and reward, should carry the right kind of balance. That’s part of why aram brawls can seem that much more appealing than say QM, the relative skill demand and reward for that demand have a better balance than other rewards.

Given the movie reveal for announcing hots (with characters just duking things out 1v1 all over) had the game released with aram/brawl instead of QM, it would have matched the visual expectation from that video better than the objective-driven gameplay. That’s part of why some players just ‘brawl’ it out in mid: it’s what they wanted to do in the first place cuz that’s how they saw the game.

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Take Overwatch for example, it is a team game but a super skilled Grand Master can absolutely 1v5 a bunch of platinum casuals even if all his teammates go afk, with exceptional personal skill.

In HotS you can’t due to various hero and exp mechanics making this implausible. You can’t just fight people 1v5 here, not necessarily even 1v2 at times, because of the limited tools and cooldowns of heroes.

That would require changes to core mechanics of HotS, such as allowing players to sacrifice 60% of their HP to reduce their mobility cooldowns by 80% (so they can micro and outmanouver less skilled players and still stay alive even at odds like 1 versus 3). And that will probably never happen.

In Hots 1 weak or afk player drags down even the highest GM disproportionately. 2 afks/bad players makes a win near impossible.

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True, but had nearly everything to do to appease the lower skilled player because it was “unfun” and “difficult to counter” .

I deffinitly agree !

Totally ! Theres a few characters i would had love to revert the rework because of that.

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Great topic; love the video.

I got a different take on the video’s message. To me, the moral of the story was that making a game harder (or easier) isn’t necessarily better. It was about what the target audience expects that game to be.

In an example, he said that button mashing fighters make for great games. However, forgiving mechanics don’t belong in a Street Fighter game because that franchise has a reputation of requiring precise timing.

Traditionally, MOBAs were about last hitting, items and individual xp. Since these games have been out for a while, it has become the expectation that this is how it should be.

HoTS really challenged these ‘core’ mechanics and made decisions like downplaying the laning phase to make room for more PvP. However, the laning phase is such a huge aspect of most other games. To a seasoned MOBA player, HoTS gave the impression that it was a watered down game.

Hots is by far my favourite game, but the battle wasn’t about whether it was easier. Instead, it was about being released too late. The MOBA fanbase established an ideal of what a MOBA “should” be. HoTS was rejected because it didn’t meet that ideal.

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I’m of the mindset that games should have the lowest skill floor possible, and the highest skill cap possible.

People shouldn’t feel like they’re fighting the controls.
They shouldn’t feel like they have to dance through a dozen hoops to get any value.
But there should always be interesting and difficult ways the skills interact to improve the maximum potential of what is being played.

This is why I push for lower damage output, but also lower cooldowns.
High damage allows low skill players to occasionally get lucky and feel good. And I don’t think that’s good for the game.
Lower damage does make bad positioning slightly less punishing, but when it is compensated by lower cooldowns not only do the players need to do more in a shorter time, but they also get to.
It opens more doors for skilled players to maximize their potential because they can increase their value at all times.

It’s also why I’m not fond of hero design that relies on combos.
Kel’Thuzad is an example of hero design I think is slightly poor, as KTZ players are encouraged to just dump all of their abilities.
I’ve seen them throw out everything when the second chain missed and get no value out of it, because the mindless super combo is so central to his play style.
And unfortunately by being designed like that, he really doesn’t have many other options for interesting play.

Chromie’s current iteration may be lacking in some areas, but her Time Traps have become much more interesting.
No longer are they just tools to enable her combo.
Their manual detonation requires more skill, but by allowing them to affect allies and having talents to buff allies they can be used in a more interesting manner.
Manual detonation also allows her to attempt to hit multiple enemies with them, or single out specific heroes by ignoring the first one to pass.
They are a bit harder to use, which was slightly compensated by increasing their health.

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Told ya!

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Actually the whole experience globes part was a change for the greater good, in that it actually increased the skillgap between good and bad players.

Much like i stated when the globes got released time after time on every complaining topic, i said that no characters were broken, you just gotta learn to adapt, i found it laughable when people started complaining day 1 about how Aba and TLV was now ruined and blabla…

The XP globe change was such a good move in that it taught players about soaking XP, while also increasing the skill it takes to actually lane, and also when and how to soak.

What we need in this game is not to give in to bad players, but rather increasing the skillgap so that the Diamond league doesn’t feel like a shamefull league.
Because to be honest, it is embarassing when a new season starts and you have to go through Diamond again, or like i just did that i had a decay in ranks during the holidays and had to go through that place again.
It is a bloody mess down here, people can’t to the very basics of the game.
Which is something to expect from Silver players or below, not Diamond which is so close to the top.

So at the moment if you are mechanicly doing ok, you can reach the lower diamond leagues 5-3, and yet be a donkey when it comes to using the map and using your team to your advantage, i just find that sad.

So more stuff like the XP globes plz because like i said from Day 1, they were absolutly a gods gift to this game.

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Shut up, I was right even if I wasn’t right :triumph:

There’s something every MOBA player knows in the back of their head.

Their game has a learning cliff. There’s no tutorial. And the number of mechanics are so overwhelming it’s incredible.

How are you supposed to know that Rupture does damage based on when you move? Why would any beginner realize that Darius becomes death incarnate after landing five stacks? Where is it explained how Mal’ganis can flip his life bar and yours around with a quick channel? How come you can’t knock Jormungandr around?

What are all these options and which ones should I Pick? There’s no time to choose in the middle of a game where time efficiency is everything.

So I ask you. How would you deal with this seeing as every tutorial can’t work and there are new mechanics added with each hero?

Or do you want this game to turn into GunZ?

From a pure game design standpoint making the game accessible enough that new players aren’t just thrown in the deep end is one of the most important factors in game design, period.

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I love this idea !

God that’d probably be terrible. looking at SC2, it is a niche game partially because the skill floor is so damn high (and it’s increased every expansion because of a smaller population). Raising the skill floor just scares away newbies and lower skill players. Playing the game over an extended period can be tiring and frustrating, especially when that skill can easily decay if you abstain from regular play.

Increasing the overall skill of the playerbase is not a bad idea of course, but I don’t think that’s the way to go about it. While we’re on this subject, I want to say blizz has done a poor job of player education.

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