Abathur Ideas for Diversity & Enriched Gameplay

General Discussion
1

This is part balancing, part new and enriched gameplay, part reintroducing removed aspects, part creative ideas. Especially in those, balance is probably way off. Feedback and creative input is appreciated!

Edited 4 March.

General Goals

Improve talent and build diversity. While I buff lesser talents, Aba’s best builds overperform atm so I expect baseline nerfs.

Condense Locust build, make it more engaging and add PvP options.

Make Toxic Nests less cheesy and add a baseline slow.

Introduce ‘near team’ builds aided by Locusts and talents that are significantly stronger when not far from Abathur. New gameplay element could also make up for his body soaking weakness on maps like Braxxis and Spider Tomb. Think of Murky with aggressive egg placement.

Note that I go for some crazy ideas but Abathur himself is a unique hero in the first place. There’s room for new gameplay elements! Although I wouldn’t go for Slapathur talents…

Improve build diversity. Note that Abathur’s best builds overperform atm, so while I buff his lesser talents I expect baseline nerfs to follow. Probably on Stab and Spike Burst, as well as the symbiote talents on level 16, which would also make Hivemind weaker.

Abilities

New Ability – Locust Command (E)

  • Set a point for nearby Locusts to travel towards for up to 5 seconds after spawning. Reactivating cancels the last point (Helps Locusts intervene in a fight target your preferred lane).

Symbiote (Q)

  • Now grants Abathur 20 Spell Armor while active.
  • (Shielding is there visually. The idea is to protect Abathur against long-range threats that, especially in the lategame, could scare him into hiding in base all the time, like Mephisto’s Consume Souls occurring twice with the level 20 upgrade. Getting close and personal should remain just as effective.*

Toxic Nests (W)

  • Now slows by 15% for 2 seconds (Nests that slow chasers or fleeing heroes are more strategic and that should be baseline).
  • Damage now occurs over 4 seconds (Time to react = less blow-up cheese).
  • No longer dismounts heroes (Removes annoyance of not knowing whether to re-mount after hitting a Nest. Nerfs anti-rotation a bit, but keep in mind a) revealing enemies already counters rotation b) Abathur has a global presence c) this makes more room for a Slow which matters in teamfights, more so than an enemy coming two seconds later for stumbling on a Nest.)

Talents

Level 1

Locust Brood (Trait) – Moved from Level 16, Merged with Survival Instincts

  • Activate to spawn three Locusts. 180 second cooldown (starts on cooldown).
  • Hitting heroes with Stab, Spike Burst and Toxic Nests reduces the cooldown of Locust Brood by 1 second.
  • Passive: Increases Locust Health and Damage by 40%.
  • (Benefits siege via active PvP interaction and synergizes with non-Locust talents. Four chiefly passive Locust talents are a bit much and I wouldn’t just buff them).*

Envenomed Nest

  • Added Functionality: Also increases Toxic Nest slow by 10%.
  • (Giving both damage and cc goes with both the ability and tier’s theme, as level 1 you choose between dps, healing, sieging and map control.)

Level 4

New Talent: Metabolic Boost (Q)
· After being active for 3 seconds, the Host and Symbiote gain 10% Spell Power. If the host isn’t farther from Abathur than 250% of his vision range, this bonus increases to 15% and applies instantly. (One of two ‘near allies’ talents.)

Level 7

Just creative ideas, balance probably way off. I’m mostly cautious as the tier has no host buffs for atm and Hivemind exists.

Vile Nest - Removed

New Talent: Virulent Spikes (Q)

  • Stab and Spike Burst reduce enemy Hero Damage by 5% for 2.5 seconds, up to 20%. (Best with Stab/Spike talents and benefits from prolonged Carapace use.)

New Talent: Biotic Leech

  • Symbiote’s host Hero or Monstrosity is healed for 75% of the damage dealt to Enemy Heroes by Toxic Nests and Locusts. (A talent for Nest or ‘Near Team’ Locust builds that offers new ways of healing dependent on planning ahead.)

New Talent: Symbiotic Link (Q)

  • Carapace heals the host for 100% more. If the host isn’t farther from Abathur than 250% of his vision range, this bonus increases to 200% and Carapace also applies to Abathur (pure ‘Abathur near Team’ talent).

Level 13

New Talent: Multi-Strain (Trait) Replaces Bombard Strain

  • Grants bonuses to future Locusts. Activate to switch.
  • Assault Strain: Locusts gain 25% Movement Speed and explode for 120 damage on death (no cleave but larger and more damaging explosion, plus speed for more ‘duration’ and getting in front of minions to tank for).
  • Bombard Strain: Locusts last 50% longer and gain a long-range siege attack.
  • (PvE-wise you switch between waveclear or sieging. PvP-wise you switch between chasing with an explosive finish or a backliner that zones enemies. Being able to switch between two historically underperforming talents is a buff that fits Abathur’s adaptive design.)

Level 20

Locust Nest

  • Now lasts for 60 seconds (bit of a nerf, if neither enemies nor (dead atm) Aba deal with it, won’t stay there forever. Not that this tends to happen).
  • The last spawn creates three Locusts (Can still use this talent for mindgames etc, but this rewards timing and placing a nest so it’ll last its full duration).
  • Added Functionality: Locusts gain 20 Armor against heroes (Mostly a PvP buff).

New Talent: Ballistospores (W)

  • Toxic Nests gain 50% explosion radius and affected enemies receive 50% bonus damage from Stab and Spike Burst. Additionally, Toxic Nests can be cast during Symbiote within a certain range of the host.
  • (A Storm Toxic Nest talent with a PvP focus, as it’s castable during Symbiote wherever your allies may be, and the bonus damage needs you to strike enemies.)

Extra Ideas

Locust Strain

  • Locusts leave a trail of slime for 5 seconds after spawning (Same that Abathur leaves behind, bit of a nerf to balance out the E ability).

Toxic Nests

  • Damage no longer stacks / Nests must be placed further apart. (Extra anti-blow-up thoughts).

Symbiote

  • Also grants Abathur Unstoppable (Don’t think that’s a huge deal when you’re rooted but not hot on this one. This would protect from annoyances like Diablo’s Apocalypse but also increase your survivability as hatting a nearby ally or Locust might give you the edge in killing an assaulter.)

Locust Brood Alternatives (always including Survival Instincts)

  • Idea 1: Lock behind a (damage?) quest so Locust Brood is available later.
  • Idea 2: No cooldown. Hitting heroes with Stab, Spike Burst or Toxic Nests recharges the ability.
1 Like
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No.
Bad idea.
Consumed by Hatred does not kill Abathur, I don’t think even at 20 it kills Abathur (if someone else causes it to trigger twice).

Knowing when to jump off of hat so that when the global stun hits, you will be able to jump back on quickly is skillful.

Being stunned by a hanzo affow to stop symbiotic is a good/odd countsrplay.

Spell armor, sure. But unstoppable is just dumb, lowering the skill ceiling and raising the skill floor.

Does it stack???
That is the important part about DoT.

You seriously want him to trade the ability to dismount for lower damage (HP Regen effectively makes anything DoT deal lower damage).
AND also trade away dismounting for -10% ms for 2.5 seconds.

No, because it is really easy to shut down Abathur a siege damage, and hence this if you really want to.

The talent is performing fine as is. Why buff it?

Does the DoT stack???

Dumb. These talents thy get buffer when Abathur is close have to be balanced around him not being close, or else they’re garbage.

But for maps with objectives close to the fort/walls that makes them Imbalanced.

By design this kind of idea is bad.

Do I really have to explained why this is a bad idea?

I don’t think you understand how insane 100% healing is.
And at 200% healing it’s freaking insane.

Same issue with “near Abathur” talents I mentioned earlier.

Why?
And hit by what?
Presumably by Stab, but you do need to be clear.

No. Do I have to explain this one?

Also, 150 at what point? Is that 150 damage at levels 0? At level 10? Level 13?
???

… super strong.
Terrible idea.

2 Likes
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Where is my downbutton?!? One of worst rework suggestions I’ve ever read.

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I really like the Abathur - in Teamfight range approach and the synergy between mine damage and healing output.

The ideas regarding abilities changes are not perfect but very creative and interesting.

2 Likes
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Cheers dandy, that’s what I went for. I realize some stuff may be a little crazy, but that’s kind of my point. You can reduce the crazy later but need to start somewhere! Plus Abathur is himself a crazy hero in the first place :stuck_out_tongue:

Now for Mr Planar, I appreciate the thoroughness so I’ll reply to everything.

Consume souls deals 357 damage and Abathur has 685 hp. IF Consumed by Hatred doubles the cast that’s 714 plus 10% missing health damage. I think 25 Spell Armor just about covers it. Not sure on the ‘Unstoppable’ part which is why I added a question mark, I don’t think it’s a hue deal but I’ll probably remove it from future posts just in case.

Yes, I thought it should’t stack but the reaction time given with it being DoT might be enough.

The ‘no dismount’ is meant, again, to address players who don’t know whether to remount as more mines may be ahead. The slow doesn’t ‘trade’ with this. It’s useful in fights, especially when enemies are chasing or retreating. Could be higher. Again, this is meant to be a buff. You nerf blow-up and anti-rotation and put the value in actual cc.

If you won’t have high siege damage, you don’t pick Locust build in the first place. Abathur deals tons of it just through hatting allies alone.

It’s a little behind the Spike Burst talent. The idea is to add a bit more so players wouldn’t miss MULE when it hopefully gets deleted. With the devs’ sneaky slight nerf of it and making Networked Carapace busted going this direction… But I don’t dare mention that lest I get disregarded for not liking MULE alone.

These talents are meant to already be decent if he’s not close, else they’d do nothing if he was far away. They’re just significantly stronger if he’s near. This talent could still be picked for a Ragnaros, Alarak or Orphea.

No offense but I think it goes along the lines of ‘it’s not something Abathur does atm so it can’t be done’.

Regenerative Microbes healed for 62, new carapace heals for 23 while active.

I explain next to it, slight nerf while making the talent less forgiving.

Explain how allowing to switch between two historically, and Bombard Strain currently, massively underperforming talents is a decent but not gamebreaking buff? Also 150 baseline. Assault Strain used to deal 102, Nests deal 153.

The lack of thoroughness in some of your comments could’ve been absent though. ‘Do I have to explain’ type of comments don’t say anything.

In the rare case this lasts ridiculously wrong, Abathur doesn’t have to re-engage with it.

And making the last spawn stronger rewards placing a nest expecting it to not be found. Nests can also be used mostly for mindgames, but there’s also that.

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Why can’t someone with a global be able to “hard counter” abathur at level 20 in one specific scenario?

As an Abathur player I don’t mind this counter being killed… But I don’t see a reason why it should make it harder for Abathur to be killed normally.

If Mephisto takes that ultimate level 20, and you sit on the map, without paying attention, that one is on you.

Just a poor idea to be unable to force Abathur out of symbiote.

Given the time it takes for the cooldown/etc, someone just landing a stun or similar on you seems fair counter play.

If it doesn’t stack it is dead in the water… I understand not wanting to dismount people (it feels bad) but, overall the mine suggestions are not a buff as I see them so far.

Focus locust, focus symbiote.

The only benefit I see here is people might realize to focus symbiote minions, which is good for the game overall. But I don’t see how it’s anything short of a nerf.

Especially as with the latest (undocumented tt) balance change to locusts, they seem fine now.

Yes, but currently Symbiote build is a tad OP. As far as I’m concerned at least, other Abathur players may have different opinions.

It causes you to need to balance around two different set of numbers.

And on different maps these numbers will be very different.

On Dragon Shrine and Braxis holdout, and some parts of Warhead junction (And some parts of cursed hollow)… It could be OP. While being “okay” outside of those areas.

Meanwhile on Battlefield of Immortals, Volskaya Foundry, etc… It would be “okay” nearly all the time.

Or maybe it would be “okay” only on the maps where you can be close to ABathur during objectives, which means on other maps/later in the game it would be “weak”.

A talent can be strong early and weak later… But this seems to fluctate in a state where it would either be a “must pick” talent, or it would be a garbage talent that was okay on very specific maps early game.

This is why I am very down on “close to abathur” talents. Because they introduce another area to balance him around, and make it hard to design talents which will be viable in more than 1-2 scenarios.

This one is 100% me failing to read, I read it as the target gets 100%/200% healing period. From all sources. That is a 100% failing from me.

It’s not the dominant talent. It leads in winrate (from our not fully accurate hotslogs numbers) slightly. But it also has a far, far lower pickrate than Soma Transfer does.

It also ruins the PvE power of it, which seems at odds with the locust buff that you made earlier.

Sure, there is a locust talent on the same tier, but locusts don’t always need to be taken.

It is gamebreaking because locusts should be near a fine place with the buff they just rolled out last patch, which ups survival instinct to +60% hp and +60% damage.

This already makes the locusts very strong at taking camps/etc. Especially when combined with the buff suggestion which lets you “set their rally” point.

This would give you faster locusts which with locust brood (old or new, I still think the old one would be better overall for balance) which could much more easily be thrust into a teamfight to deal a bunch of damage and explode.

If you have locust brood up at 13, and queue them into a teamfight (This does require “risky” tunneling/etc. But with 5 second “rally” point seems safe) and when they die they’ll deal nearly 750 AOE damage.

They will make taking camps with abathur easier, but the locusts (now buffed) can already do that easier than before, and do it just fine.

It might be okay without your rally concept, but in that case it still seems like a odd way to do thing.

I think if locusts still need a buff, the Bombard strain should get slightly larger AOE shot. As normally it only hits 1 target, only hitting multiple targets if the enemy is moving and two enemies get “on the sides” of a siege shot.

Yes, that was poor of me. A lot of that was caused by me misreading what you wanted the Carapace talent to do, seeing (falsely) someone say “Carapace should double/triple the healing someone gets” set off a very confused and annoyed voice in my head.

facepalms at failed reading comprehension.

Locust nest was never the problem with locusts. Even after the rework that gutted locust build, it was never the problem.

It is a talent that was nailed when they designed it.

If you want to buff it, make it stealthed,

I will admit to misreading again (last spawn, not all spawns) but regardless, it still buffs the talent for no actual reason.

1 Like
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While JUST the lvl 20 upgrade to Hate ult isn’t enough to kill Abathur, EITHER of the +20% spellpower boosts with that ult can kill Abathur. And if you are building for that ult, you should get them spellpower boosts anyway.

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False, Abathur has 1503hp at level 20, and Mephisto at level 20 his ultimates deals 783 damage + 10% hp.

Or, 783+150. Even if the 20% spellpower buffs the percentage damage (I do not believe it does) it only deals 1120-ish damage.

Now, if the ultimate kills someone, it does kill abathur on the second cast. With or without the 20% spellpower, regardless of level.

1 Like
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There is no reason for Abathur to be out by level 20 and he can just clone to avoid the damage. It’s true that the mephisto ult with upgrade will kill Aba if he is AFK but that’s players fault and completely avoidable.

2 Likes
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Not sure if this should not be in Hero Suggestion and not here, but that’s not relevant.

Anyway, reading your suggestions OP, you either don’t play Abba or play in very low league.
Like come on, mines not dismounting and their damage is dot?! They are already bad, useful only for scouting and preventing gangs. Why would you nerf them even more?

Nah, bad changes, almost all of them.

1 Like
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Mine build is viable on BHB, imo, spread out wide around the turn in. But the map isn’t in the ranked rotation currently, so my luck with that build on BHB might just be down to QM weirdness.

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The mines were good before they removed the stacking on the 1st talent.
Now they even removed the global mines talent, which was mostly used with locust strategy to get to the other side of the map.

But yeah, on BHB it is good because you know if they are paying the coins. Still, as I said, it is good for scouting and occasional Tracer or low HP assassin rotating lines and running over 8 mines… Which is like not worth to pick up the talents.

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It’s about making it annoying to turn in. Mines spread out that all cause the slow, I don’t take damage for the mines there, but extra mines and slow is very good for making fights favor your team easily in the center.

As well as delay turn in.

It makes fights/turning in extremely annoying for the other team, as well as delaying them from reaching the point.

After my first two dozen or so Abathur games I Realized that in 99%+ of scenarios the global mines did not allow me to get further onto the map than what regular mines could do.

This may be a difference of opinion, but to me if you’re unable to get across the map with mines as is, you’re not playing well. Or rather are not creative/aggressive. Sometimes not playing aggressive is the correct choice. So “not playing well” is a poor way to explain it.

But, I know there was a solid chunk of Abathur players who were sad to lose the talent, so that may not be the majority opinion.

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Yeah I know, the mines are annoying, that is true. But that is one map which is not even in the rotation, and as far as I remember it never was and unless reworked, never will…

I used the global mines on few maps, like Warheads. Truth is, you did not want to miss bonus AA and most time you draft Aba, you pick him because of synergy with someone in your team.

Still, the global mines into base, burrow, 5 locusts and port back, getting half of the keep’s HP had something in it. :grin: That was fun QM play…

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My point is… I find myself able to burrow near the enemy base (not in it, but very close to the outside of it) in pretty much every game I play as aba, on any map, provided we’re not just being crushed by the other team.

Even now on maps like Warhead, I don’t have an issue.

I do miss Bombard* locusts being able to outrange towers… But the change was indeed probably better on the whole for game balance, sadly… =[

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I see you’re responding currently, PhantomV13, so I’m sorry to post this while you’re doing so…
But I just realized a possible “counter argument” and am addressing it:

There is an argument that on those maps Abathur should just move closer to the objective in order to give the close bonus. And good Abathur players will do this for the bonus…

But that is teaching newbie Abathur players they should position agressively to the objective. Which is counter to how locust pushing/soaking is typically done. Allowing you to not miss minion soak while keeping symbiote on a hero in a fight.

You want to be far away from the objective so that locusts can passively push the objective, at times you may make the choice to get close to spawn a cluster of locusts at an objective, or don’t have the time to move far away… But that is a very low scenario.

This would just be encouraging newbie abathur players to play abathur “badly” compared to how he has been designed to work since the original launch of the game.

And the increased deaths it creates I think would make people cry about abathur and needing to fix talents.

It just tries to create a mechanic that has no need to exist, while making it harder to balance abathur overall.

I would be okay with the first part, but the second part kills it for me.

17

Hmm, maybe I’ll do a couple edits to update this thing after all.

Oh didn’t know that was a thing :smiley:

Dehaka and Falstad counter Abathur via mobility to get to him, Fenix must spend a heroic and he’d need vision from someone else too. Mephisto’s counter doesn’t involve aiming or sacrificing anything. This can force Abathur out of any mindgames, misdirection, pushing and so on, aka passivity as he’ll only be a hat.

As someone who’s played both Abathur and Egg Murky I assure you passive players are missing on a lot.

I said for hitting an enemy, not enemy hero. Not hot on this one either balance-wise, more so design-wise due to the ‘forgiving’ nature.

Not sure on the exact balance of course, but these talents are meant to be good either way, just a touch better with Abathur nearby. More so on maps where body-soaking is the hardest, like Dragon Shire and Spider Tomb. Would also be good on Battlefield of Eternity depending on where the Immortal stands, but generally the idea is to get a bit more risky. Outside the talents’ reward, there’s the mindgames.

That’s an interesting point but newbies don’t even go to bodysoak lanes when enemies are at objectives. I don’t think a couple ‘near team’ talent or two that already work if slightly weaker away from team would be that confusing. What I’m interesting in is the new gameplay element. Which again has similarities to Murky with his egg up close.

It’s not like I suggested Slapathur talents :stuck_out_tongue:

I believe you are mistaken, it’s 40%.

If you check HotsLogs for winrates, both for the old and new Abathur these talents are way to weak. I mean I liked using them, but that’s irrelevant. The flexibility is a decent but not huge buff. PvE-wise speed & explosion ensure the Locusts get up front asap to clear minions to tank for your own. I reckon the explosion damage should drop by 30 though.

Buffs fix talent diversity but not design. The Locust build is very passive and has way too many talents.

Locust Brood rolled into the purely passive Survival Instincts, choosing what your next Locusts can do, Locust Nests that can’t last forever and reward proper placement with a burst of pushing, all make the build more engaging.

Um, I also recommend a baseline slow? It’s not a nerf, it’s a shift of power.

Aka less cheesy one-shots or not knowing whether to remount again, but more actual cc which makes placement more strategic. If Nests slow and aren’t just damage, you think of them differently. They will slow enemies who hunt your allies or who are fleeing.

The dismounting is just annoying and doesn’t affect Abathur’s gameplay. Scouting and chip damage already hurt rotation.

Here’s what really isn’t relevant.

These aren’t arguments, these are pompous, meaningless, accusatory statements. Not that you care even though you mention that, or that it matters or, but I’ve reached Master or Grand Master when I was playing most and have hundreds of games with Abathur.

Don’t bring personal and irrelevant stuff in the conversation, that’s petty. I put thought into this to share it and get feedback, not to get schooled.

If you have any actual input go for it.

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Dunno, I just edited it. Don’t take my baby away!

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ALSO, I AM ABOUT TO GO TO SLEEP (WELL, TRY TO SLEEP…). ANYTHING ON BALANCE I DISCUSS IS ABOUT AS I RECALL THE ORIGINAL CHANGES READING, OP MAY HAVE CHANGED THEM, AS A POST THEY MADE I BELIEVE INDICATES THEY ARE/WILL BE.

I clicked post when I went to select some text.

I’m drunk, just finishing my second glass of Glenmorangie, probably about 8-10 ounces (240-300ml). so i’m well, pretty damn drunk.

I think I adressed everything you did there… If talents are changed, I’m happy to look at them… probably tomorrow when I’m not drunk XD.

ah, me failing to read again… Or rather failing to double check the wording.
I wrote that last response on my phone on a 10 minute break at work :wink:

Apologies.

The numbers to check map by map are poor.

Locusts by their nature will tend to be worse on small maps given heroes will naturally rotate more given it is much easier to rotate.

But the data is very, very fresh. And when you filter specifically for the larger maps, it seems to be performing to a degree that I think that inhouse data would see it better (Inhouse data, when shared publicly, has used Diamond+Master, level 10+ on hero).

Sadly there is barely enough data to see winrates when looking at all leagues in QM on a per map basis.

I believe more data will show that locusts are slightly behind symbiote talents but I also believe that symbiote talents are slightly op overall.

You also need to conditionally have to have one of 4 heroes in a position where ~780 (level 20) + 10% damage == kill.

Also, I find killing Abathur as Medivh is very easy, and once you do it a single time, ABathur often will not symbiote when you’re near him, which effectively “forces” a 4v4.

Yes, as someone who mained murky (before the rework (partially because I as on hiatus during the current rework, and partially since returning I have found myself disliking the current murky)), and mained abathur.

Doubling the value isn’t “good either way”…

Small bonuses, like say you go from 100% → 125% is a minor change from Abathur being nearby, and that kind of thing I think Could Be viable. It seems to make the ability pointlessly complex, but the numbers you suggested (or rather the power spike that being near Abathur grants them) indicates that it would be a pretty massive difference.

Of course, the smaller you make the bonus, the more it becomes a “why bother” case. Which is another black mark on this idea, imo.

I strongly disagree, as someone playing Abathur since either late closed beta, or early closed beta. Not 100% sure which.

If you’re letting Locust Nest sit passively and not at minimum recasting it to push harder you’re not doing locusts right! imo.

I find mostly there are two case:

  1. our team is far ahead/clearly better, and locusts nests don’t die.
  2. locust nests die before it is off cooldown again.

The cooldown is 45 seconds, under trhe suggested 60 seconds.

So I’m not really sure how your suggested changes really help. If the other team isn’t killing the locust nest before 60 seconds, they’re probably already losing.

The overall changes you suggested for locust nests are a massive nerf. They are. I’m kinda drunk so I won’t try to explain currently.
But I am happy to at least attempt to do so when i am not drunk.

er, I meant to say mines, not locust nests… Derp

Honestly, looking at these suggestions, I kinda figured you barely played him/were low league as him.

I’m not quite (at least in results) in the ranking you claim, but when I actually was trying in HL I got to Diamond 3 (at which point I stupidly wanted to not lose rank, so I stopped playing much, instead of grinding Master (I think I could have/can reach it) like I should have).

But some of these changes, honestly, I’m not sure you get “the fantasy” (as HotS team has put it) or core design Abathur has had since Beta/Alpha.

I do strongly agree that statements that are purely about rank/skill level are generally in post taste. I’ve probably made a few poor comment about them, but for ideas like reworks/etc… You don’t need to be good at the game to be able to understand what needs to be changed/modified.

Although it helps. Generally speaking the worse the suggested changes are, the worse the player is. There are obviously exceptions.

21

Nah, basically things I told you I’m not hot about are removed for sake of clarity and I changed a couple numbers.

Thanks for the input btw, I posted in the forums first to get feedback and improve this for Reddit, which is even tougher :stuck_out_tongue:

You mean players picked Locusts on wrong maps and lowered their winrate? I wouldn’t count on that… Plus Aba’s least favorite maps are barely played in ranked. I can’t link here but I’ve saved the statistics of pre-rework high league Abathur on both ranked and QM, you’ll have to see for yourself though.

Don’t forget, Symbiote is instant and easy to get value from. Every talent for it means instant value and some benefit PvE too.

Doesn’t change that an Abathur wouldn’t take the risk and just stay in base.

Slime build and March, you can’t not have fun with that. Pufferfish and Octo-Grab if they don’t have a thick frontline.

Also pick the egg talents and ask yourself how you can get the most from them. Even plant the high-health one next to you in the lane for practice. Not in ranked of course… You’ll discover a new Murky!

I rebalanced them a bit :stuck_out_tongue: Dunno what the exact numbers should be but bonuses can’t be too small either.

Using your trait to its full extent is risky and rewarding. But talents don’t change the how, they just make it stronger and give you more of a reason to use it.

Survival Instincts doesn’t affect gameplay. Bombard Strain neither, actually makes it less risky with the duration increase. Locust Brood can just be cast on cd, not much thought needed. Locust Nest can be used for mindgames but if you just drop it in a bush, eh, it’ll do its thing.

Here you have to put effort to use Locust Brood and can have Locusts more easily join battle. Choice over what Locusts you spawn make them more engaging instead of locking yourself into more waveclear or push the entire game. And nests with a bonus for being placed well must be used more carefully for full value.

Wrong again! Same cd, duration nerfed to 60 seconds.

Which is key because if you don’t spam nests on cd you get the bonus.

See? Spamming. Spamming isn’t smart. It must be discouraged.

Get sleep and get sober, wrong again!

A baseline slow makes mines overall stronger for ally lane support and teamfights.

Sure, it’s harder to blow up a backline mage at 50% health with their healer unable to react just because you stacked a buncha nests.

Sure, you hinder rotation only via damage and revealing and not by dismounting too.

But this is cheese. It is. Take power from the cheese, put it elsewhere. Plus with a baseline slow stacking them is less effective. You have to think of proper spacing, location, how the fight could go, else you miss on a lot.

Nooo, don’t be like the other guy! At least you kept it to yourself.

Honestly often it’s the pros that oppose change the most just because they can’t see a hero differently, hate change, or disregard new ideas just for being new. Every time heroes lost boring and/or generic talents, even Demolitionist, there probably always were at least a few, if not a whole bunch, of good players being opposed.

Agreed. Ages ago and still good with Aba, I suggested changes kinda promoting the Slapathur build…

Skill doesn’t necessarily improve your design ideas, but actual brainstorming does. I get better at it just by doing it, and as with anything you get better at, I see my old suggestions and cringe!

I get Aba’s fantasy and believe Toxic Nests slowing in particular add an element of strategy baseline to them that scouting and damage alone don’t bring in teamfights. Being near your team doesn’t make sense fantasy-wise but having been fresh from Egg Murky (risky egg use is the most fun and rewarding) I thought Abathur could get, like, a bit of that. Where your allies are Murky adn you the egg…

After all Abathur can be a woefully simple and braindead hero if you just hat and sit near lanes. Locust build especially, you can get full value by clicking on Locust Brood on cd and that’s it.