For that, I go Q build out of spite.
Hold up, he’s got like 1 talent for Q build.
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2, but you’re right the major problem is the lvl 7 one.
The same reason you’re more likely to notice when your allies afk than when an enemy does. When you beat an AI bot, you’re more likely to think it’s because you’re good, but when you lose, it’s because your bot was dumb.
If you watch the game though, the Varian in Queen’s game was doing mostly fine. It was Queen that spent the whole game mercing so he could never heal anyone and then blamed CS and the team for dying. It’s a perfect example of how people scapegoat others and twist in their heads from what actually happened and then make excuses. Varian just happens to be an easy scapegoat.
That might be happening with you too. The fact that you’re just instantly accepting Queen’s versions of events indicates that you’re just swallowing the easy narratives instead of questioning what might have actually happened.
I’d just challenge people to think how would the situation have changed if the Varian had specced differently. And if your answer is you would have just won, then your analysis isn’t very deep and you’re probably blaming a talent than more important factors. People just magically think that if a CS player that is playing poorly, had specced Taunt, they suddenly become a competent tank and won’t be bad. It’s just often magical thinking.
My point is that it’s probably not. If it really was, the win rates would probably show much bigger discrepancies. And try as hard as many have, TB/CS Varians still do decently in QM even with how matchmaking rules will give the variability in the types of Varian specs you get.
I just have never really been able to notice any discernible pattern from quality of Varian player and their talent picks. I’ve had oddly amazing TB Varians and terrible Taunt variant and vice versa. Now those who pick Convection on Kael’thas, that’s a different story…
At this point you are just defending bad players instead if asking yourself why KT and KTZ was not doing thier job. Varian going CS against Mei and Tychus already shows he want to make my life harder. Why are they not taking camps themself ? Why are they not soaking lanes instead of me ? Cause they are bad and I have to carry badies that then point fingers at you for not healing them.
Just to add something to this: I just had the pleasure at healing two brain dead players that threated to report me for not healing them while they just stat padded all game and left me alone to get killed by either Blaze and Samuro. No protection. Just two players stats padding instead of looking backwards what happens to me. Only positive about that game was that Cho’gall was the only one with common sense cause he could see through thier toxicity and feeding.
But in the end its ofc my fault we lost cause I was not running behind them like a heal bot until I get killed.
I had Naz occupied for over a min but it never felt into thier minds they could come down and kill him instead of dying midlane. Cause stats padding is more important than your forts.
Going Taunt he could make it easier for KTZ to combo and KT to do dmg. But he would rather leave his team without any peel.
Gonna make a time stamp for everytime KTZ was raging while being dumb himself.
3.00 KTZ is still in midlane doing nothing while complaining about im taking care of bot lane instead of himself including taking that camp.
5.07 he complain again after Varain went 4vs1 without backup where I was out of reach.
5:45 He die again while afk farming that midlane one again and then threaten to report me.
7:38 He could have helped me taking bot camp but again he want to stats pad midlane again together with Varain and dies again aswell as Varain. Mindles players doing what they are best at.
8:57: KTZ dont hit a single combo and then Varain hides in a bush while I try to prevent a cap but surely that was fine in KTZ mind.
11:50 KTZ complains again that i am doing camps while him and Varain got a kill on Naz. Complaining just for the sake of making him look good.
12:16: KT dies a pointless death for no reason. Then I die while Varain is playing with himself bot lane but surely that was my fault again ?
13:35: KTZ dies again together with Varain cause it was more important to stats pad then to defend top lane from merc camps.
14:17: KTZ crying once again.
16:36: Varain walk in 4vs1 and dies again and my ult cant save him cause he dies so fast. Could probably survied if he went taunt instead.
16:44: KT dies to laser cause no one watch that Tychus was allowed to walk up on him. Again cant save him cause he is already low.
GG WP. How many of those deaths do you think could have been prevented if they had just a little more IQ and Varain went Taunt ? Either way feel free to blame me all you want. That game was not lost because of me but cause of low IQ players that dont got the brain to think out of the box.
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You are mercing instead of healing. You barely even had opportunities to heal the Varian to even ascertain the effectiveness of his tanking because you either didn’t show up, or people had died because you were too busy mercing.
YOU JOB IS TO HEAL lol. If you think it’s such a strenuous job to heal, don’t heal. It’s fine, there are other roles. Your job is not to merc and then blame your allies for dying when they are getting no heals.
Again, I’ll pose the question, why do you think the enemy did so well without needing to merc like you did?
Like are you that bad that you think that you NEED to preoccupy a Naz as if you’re:
- Going to be good at it.
- Do you think your team will do well without a healer.
- You had already gotten the giants, the Naz would have been preoccupied ALREADY without you needing to be there.
This is just one of many examples of how bad you are. Honestly, if it weren’t for the fact that you were landing most of your flame buffets, it’s like bronze level decision making for a healer.
You know what would have made KTZ landing combos better? If he wasn’t dead all the time and you were there also slowing to get them. Like I said, the KTZ wasn’t good, you however were what made the team crumble because of your terrible decision making and obsession with mercs.
Why are you out of reach? BINGO mercing.
Getting stacks and clearing waves is not “nothing”. And if you help him, he can do it faster and more easily. Do you not understand the role of a support?
Why need to merc at all? Why does he need to help you when you can help him? Or do you think you’re so good at mercing and mercs are so important that you HAD to do it as a healer solo. Terrible mindset for a healer.
I could go on, but it seems you’re more interested in making excuses. Most of the “bad” decisions that came from the game, could have easily been ameliorated with the presence of an actual healer. The end stats say enough. You got out healed 2.5x from the other healer as Alex which is incredibly sad. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that kind of differential before from a player that wasn’t new.
I knew you had made really bad whining posts before about how others would blame you, most likely why you got into rage fits and then got silenced. But I didn’t really think it was truly this bad until watching this game. It’s honestly one of the worst games I’ve seen from a healer on the forums. And I’ve been critical about others. The bronze LiLi player I criticized last week at least tried to stick with their team. You are playing so poorly, so absent from the team, and you’re getting pissed off at the KTZ who is merely stating you’re mercing instead of healing, and then pinging you that you’re not there lol.
Except win rates will not reflect the general composition of said team, so that’s a bad indicator to go off of. You can’t just look at a stat chart and say “oh well, all talents are irrelevant to micro.”
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I haven’t watched the game mentioned, but a few general thoughts on the discussion points: as a Main Healer, I’ve found that on average the most benefit is gained by staying where the most action is going to be. It’s no good just doing what I generally think is right if my team has something else in mind at the same time. It may be that your teammates don’t fulfil their role or do so poorly. But that doesn’t mean that I should take on their role. The decision to do your own thing is at least as bad as the underlying sub-optimal decision move of your teammates.
This just leads to the feeling that the other players have no idea of the basics (which is probably true at lower ranks), while you yourself only make the situation worse. The lack of insight and the focus on the other players’ lack of understanding of the game means that you don’t adapt your game and remain stuck at the same level yourself.
One thing I appreciate about these forums is that you can discuss these topics with players who play at a higher level. There are good reasons why they are where they are, and sometimes taking their advice to heart will help you.
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It took me a long time to accept your point, but you’re right, it’s almost always better to stay with your team as a healer and, for example, not to soak if your solo lanner isn’t. It’s okay to rotate safely and pick up some exp and go back to your team, or if you’re on a healer like Rehgar, you can take camps, but communicate to your team you will be doing so.
The old Hots adage of “group with your team, even if what they are doing is wrong”, tends to win more games, which I’ll admit, is sometimes easier said than to follow.
If you hadn’t guessed, my pet peeve is players who are the team’s solo lanner, but never, go to the solo lane, probably because bruiser is one of my stronger roles. Oh, that and mercenary camp fixation, when you could end the game instead of taking a useless camp.
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I feel like Alexstraza is also an exception to this. She’s got pretty good wave clear on her own.
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No, but they have the average which all Varians are subject to. You could argue that all those talents over perform in which comps you deem “correct”, and severely underperform otherwise. But that’s not exactly an explanation I’d buy. Micro will almost inevitably mean more than talents just because the huge range in skill level. That doesn’t mean talents don’t mean anything, of course they matter, it’s just the way you’re framing it as 9/10, lynchpin, biggest indicator, means you’re assigning way more value to it than it probably deserves.
Yes, I did the same mistake and sometimes still do it, when I get tilted…
It’s a kind of human reaction I guess. Like ‘damn it, ill do it myself, go and take your lesson of your bad call without me’. But at least, mostly I am aware of how damaging this behaviour can be…
I also think that to some point it is good to soak a big crashing wave as healer, when you don’t lose much time and have some trust in your teammates that they will listen to your ping and take care.
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Yeah, everyone can get frustrated and make mistakes. I do it too. What I think a lot of people lack though is the ability to self reflect and have humility. As a healer, you should always ask, COULD I have prevented the death?
If the answer is yes, and you didn’t, no matter how your allies failed, you probably should have. I imagine in a lot of people’s minds though, they don’t even let themselves go that far because they automatically tell themselves no, and shift blame outwards rather than inwards. My allies died because THEY did that.
The issue here is that there’s some heavy delusion, Queen is doubling down on his decisions even AFTER looking at the replay. That’s some incredible denial and then using language like being a heal bot, as if that’s not part of what being a healer is. Somehow, while he’s off doing his own thing, it’s THEIR fault for not playing perfectly without a healer even though the enemy has the luxury of having their mistakes be fixed by a healer.
Like I’ll use another example here. Varian probably could have survived if he went taunt. You know what also would have helped lol, clicking Q to give him the extra second you need for your ult to go off. Also, that was literally first time Queen used the ult, because he never had the opportunity to because he was always off doing his own thing or just didn’t bother. Mind you, this is 16 minutes into the game.
Had both Q and W up and didn’t use either. Either you’re clueless or lying, and don’t know that you can focus on heroes by selecting 1-0 on the number pad which show CDs. It’ll highlight just how you’re missing crucial heals.
In case anyone is curious which game it is:
This is what it comes down to. A few. How many of the deaths would have been prevented if Queen was a better healer or at the very least just stuck with the team? A LOT of them. Imagine that, a healer making an impact by healing.
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Except that’s, again, total nonsense.
Again, the win rate doesn’t factor in team compositions to determine whether that pick was the right one. Bad talent choices are just as much bad decisions.
You want on to die on the opposite hill, be my guest, but you clearly don’t intend to waiver on it.
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You wishing to hand wave inconvenient facts is just cope. But it’s not really that surprising because you believe there is a bigger impact that it probably does.
Bad talent choices would likely lead to bad outcomes if they’re really as big of an impact as you think they do. But it just doesn’t bare out in the data. All the win rates factor in all comps, and Varian is uniquely positioned to have a negative impact if there truly was a big effect on people picking bad talents because of the role and their ability to skirt QM matchmaking. Either that, or like I said, comps in which he picks taunt “correctly” over performs, and ones where he doesn’t, would underperform, but Taunt isn’t even the highest win rate. So you can’t simultaneously say they don’t factor in comps, and then say talents are a big indicator, because the comps without it would negatively affect the win rate which is included in all the win rate.
Looking at QM win rates and ranked win rates, there’s about a 1% difference. So I imagine there is an effect, just not a very big one.
A TLDR just in case you don’t want to watch the match
“Inconvenient facts”.
Notice nobody agrees with you. Your point on win rates is a non-sequitur. Again, win rates don’t determine the factor of whether these Varians use the proper spec in their team comps (because win and pick rates focus on individual heroes). Not once have I said any of Varians comps are bad, so obviously they’ll have about the same win rates.
It’s not so much coping as much as it is you’re not understanding what I’m saying. Talents and skill play a role, but picking a bad talent for a team comp will only hinder both you and your team. A smart Varian knows how to play all 3 and not mindlessly pick one at the detriment of the game.
If you want to continue to refuse to understand that, that’s on you.
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She can clear a normal wave just fine and take easy camps just fine. Its just bad players that want to justifie that healers who got the tools to lane and take camps should only be a heal slave. Reghar and BW are perfect examples of healers who used to lane and take easy camps just fine while the 4 man soaked elswhere or tried to find a gank. Alex can do that aswell but should 100% not be the one who has to do it everytime. That should be the job of dmg dealers.
But bad players are so hellbent at reporting healers who does exatly that cause they dont got the brain to soak or play defensive. If healers have the tools to clear a lane quickly and take camps quickly then they should be allowed to do so and then go back and join the team before object spawns.
But sadly bad players just want you to be a heal slave or you get reported. You are not allowed to soak lanes or take camps even if you can do it. Your only purpose is to follow the noob around and heal him while he stats pad while you trade both top/bot forts.
Yea what a trade. You just traded two forts before first object spawns just to keep a noob alive that did nothing.
And if you did not do any of that then the bronze Illidan who just dived in 1v3 and died top lane will spam ping and report you for afk even when all logic says it him who are the fault of his own death.
And the root of all problems healers and tanks have mostly stems from bad dmg dealers who cant think for 5 sec if what he is doing is harming his team.
Well, I agree with Volun, but didn’t feel like saying anything as I expect any comment I make to be dismissed, as has been happening throughout several recent threads. You are going on about Varian’s level 4 choices, but honestly, what he picks at 13 and 16 has a greater impact on the match if he chooses poorly. And yes, win rate is one way you can more accurately judge this.
When you look at the stats for QM in the last patch, Taunt is overwhelmingly the most picked level 4. It isn’t even close. And yet, it isn’t overwhelmingly successful. In your OP, you mention the times Smash and TB are bad picks, but you seem to think Taunt is never a bad pick. I would argue that Smash as a solo frontline against hypermobile and squishy targets is far more effective than Taunt, at least in my experience. With Taunt, you are usually reliant on your team mates to secure the kill, and if they aren’t paying attention, or they are blowing their kits before you engage, nothing will happen. Especially if you took the wrong talents at 1 and 16!
So yes, while I agree Varian is one of the easier heroes to build and play wrong, I completely disagree with where the issue lies.
It ain’t his level 4.
A lot of people don’t agree with me. For one, most players are bad. But secondly, that’s precisely why I’m making the post to ask questions and challenge people to think more deeply. I see this issue all too often in my games too. People just surface level blame Varians for their level 4s or not picking Taunt. And it’s just lazy analysis and scapegoating.
Even here I ask you the question if a Varian Taunts or CS a backline and doesn’t kill anything because there’s no followup and as a result your backline dies, what difference does it make?
It probably doesn’t. How the Varian plays has much more to do with the success than just twitch blaming for not picking taunt. It doesn’t magically make the player competent nor does picking the other talents make them likely failures or it would be reflected in the win rates.
YOU are the bad player dude. None of the players were great in your game, you just did a terrible job at empowering them to their potential by spending the whole game concentrating on things a healer shouldn’t be doing. And what’s worse is you’re getting triggered over pings in which YOU are at fault for not helping.
PLAY A DIFFERENT HERO THEN. And even if you do play another more optimal hero for that role, you should be able to read the room and respond as needed. You just being tunnel visioned doesn’t help your team.
It’s weird that you think keeping people up so they don’t die is stat padding. Even in the game you talked about, people are just going to to toe against the enemy. So are the enemies stat padding? Or in another case, KTZ and Kael are defending against a heavy push, you also called that stat padding. So, they could abandon mid keep and let it burn and then soak like you seem to want them to.
It’s incredible how myopic and selfish your point of view is and you’re still blaming your allies for so many of the things you could have prevented if you just showed up. What’s sad is even when you did, you didn’t heal and they died anyways, or you position yourself so terribly and then blamed them for not using your CDs. The worst of both worlds.
I didn’t once insinuate TB or Smash are bad talents. I don’t know where you got that in any statement I may have made. I did say TB is bad if you’re picking it into a team with lots of CC blinds and that smash is bad if you’re the solo frontline. TB is good in most situations. Perhaps you’re confusing my post with another?
For Volun’s post; I see literally the opposite. A good portion of the time, the writing is one the wall the moment the Varian picks the wrong ult. If it doesn’t outright hinder the team’s functionality, it limits it greatly. Going Smash Varian against a double tank team, for example, means said Varian often gets deleted before making any contributions to fights.
To both of you: of course micro matters. Again, good team coordination trumps even a dumb decision. However, a bad talent pick is often a good indication of bad team coordination to begin with.