Trogg is problematic in that it negates what is supposed to be the compensation for going second: the coin. The coin is given to the player that has to go second because going second is an inherent disadvantage, obviously. This is, in part, the root of why this card is and feels unfair – it very well can be depending upon when and how it is played.
I am not arguing against tech cards, and the need for players to take a step outside of their bubble wherein they only worry about building toward their finisher. I am all for tech cards. I want to bring back the use of silences and hard removal and minions like Shadow Hunter Vol’jin (best warchief ever, by the way). However, as made clear in my first paragraph, this card has the ability to punish players even more for going second – a roll of the die that disadvantages them to begin with, and that the ability to utilize the coin is meant to help balance.
All of that said, at the least, this minion needs to be increased to 2 mana. I won’t argue further, but will say, there are many players that believe it should be made to cost even more, nerfed, or even killed. I am not.
Thank you.
Edit: To better understand how important the coin is, and just how disadvantaged one is already when going second, here are some statistics collected by J_Alexander_HS. And do note, these stats were collected a few years ago pre-Trogg, and so I can only imagine the disparity between going first and going second has increased.
18 Likes
I totally agree. Trogg can feel unfair when it gets buffed and you have no answers on turn 4-6, but that’s just part of the game. Where it’s really broken is how it works if played turn one when going first. Some classes have basically no answer, others might be set back a couple turns which is enough to decide the match. This asymmetrical advantage is a design embarrassment. They need to code the coin to not be a spell anymore. Period.
Also, if they wanted to add anti-quest tech they could do that easily. We already have cards that do special things if you have a quest active, they could make cards that do special things if your opponent has a quest active. Like “4 mana 3/4 battlecry: if your opponent has a quest active, destroy one of their mana crystals” Something like that is definitely possible.
5 Likes
Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling; and I totally love your idea for anti-quest tech. As for the coin and whether that ought to be a spell is another discussion entirely. I’m not saying that I disagree, though. However, I doubt that fact will ever change. 
1 Like
My thoughts exactly. Im hoping for a mana change to 2, I dont mind the effect as long as I get at least a fighting chance to not lose on turn 1.
2 Likes
Cards that end the game if they aren’t removed shouldn’t come down on turn one. See: tunnel trogg and undertaker for further examples
Their are some decent answers for it, but the point is a 1 drop shouldn’t be able to carry a deck
2 Likes
Most put a timer on your window to close out the game at the least
Agreed, needs to be bumbed to 2 mana asap as yeah against Paladin is just a autolose card when going second and played on turn one…
1 Like
BuT iTs GuD bEcOs It CoUntErS sOlItAiRe DeCkS
7 Likes
The coin should be played strategically in games (with or without trogg), not just spammed out automatically on turn 2. Only amateurs do that.
The inability to play the coin at all without being punished defeats the purpose of the coin and further punishes players for going second. The entire point of the coin is to provide balance for the inherent disadvantage of going second. Players shouldn’t be further disadvantaged for something completely beyond their control. I’ll also note that it’s very often strategically sound to play the coin turn one when going second.
Making this card at least two mana helps to prevent this additional disadvantage. Although, it doesn’t solve the problem entirely and that’s why I note in my last sentence that some players believe this minion is against the game philosophy (that going second is compensated by having access to the coin – which this card aims to negate).
3 Likes
I think Trogg is fine as it is, I have yet to lose a game to a Trogg, T1 or otherwise, and it serves an important purpose of balancing certain decks, moving it to 2 mana would probably just see it become unplayable ( a 2 mana 1/2 is just not good enough and dies to anything).
According to VS Trogg is not a power outlier, so let’s leave it for now.
2 Likes
Personally, I’ve never understood the need for the coin in the first place. Part of the strategy for deckbuilding in any legit TCG/CCG is knowing how to counter the disadvantage of going second.
This is the only one I’ve ever played that gives you pity resources for going 2nd. Then again, the better TCG’s/CCG’s run larger decks and allow more variety in deckbuilding. Being gated behind tiny deck sizes and handcuffed to a single hero class per just plain sucks.
They could even go with minimum 30 cards with a max of 60.
Another problem is the inability to play real counter-control. Having to pre-load counters and such is bad. Blindly shooting at whatever pops up next is bad.
2 Likes
I don’t know if I buy the coin reasoning. Delaying use of the Coin is also something that Cult Neophyte can do, and does do, even though she costs 2. It doesn’t seem to be that big a problem.
I do think I’ve come around on the idea that Trogg needs to be nerfed though. Not because of principles, but because of raw numbers.
I could go into more depth but I should have went to sleep two hours ago so… maybe tomorrow. But in my data-backed opinion, part of the list of nerf targets would be
#1 Libram Paladin
#2 Face Hunter
#8 Buff Paladin
and looking at the highest winrate cards for those decks just kinda leads to the inevitable conclusion that either you have to nerf three different things, or you can just nerf that one card that’s overperforming in all three. A lot cleaner the second way.
I think the best change is to a 2-Cost 2/2. Still can be scary against spell-heavy decks or get buffed for sick copying but a turn later.
1 Like
I think only bumping to 2-mana kills the card. Either make it 2-mana 2/2 while changing the coin to not be a spell or add a “At the end of the opponent’s turn” to the text, similar to Echoing Ooze.
Ugh no.
You only get two options:
1 cost 1/1 text unchanged
or
2 cost 2/2 text unchanged
Learn to play ( --____-- )
It is. But just because a thing is generally good to have in the game doesn’t mean that it’s balanced properly. It’s okay to believe both “there should be a spell that destroys all minions in the game” AND “a 1-cost Twisting Nether is OP.”
I don’t want the text in Irondeep Trogg’s text box to change, not even a single letter. But a 1/2 base for 1 mana with that text is just a wee bit too good.
me on turn 1: oh, I can coin to remove trogg! No wait, l can’t coin, let’s wait a turn
turn 2: trogg has divine shield. Ok, I’ll remove the divine shield and next turn I kill it
turn 3: trogg has 5 health: why are we still here… just to suffer?
I have unironically less problems against trogg when I am playing mozaki mage, because at that point I don’t care about it much, I just need to survive.
When I play a minion based deck, it seems stronger, because it can deal with multiple minions and locks me from playing spells
6 Likes
I was mainly making fun of people who ape this line without actually breaking down what it does in its current form like the OP attempts to do. The kind of people who think otks should just flat out not exist and think they want a meta full of Priest mirrors.
I know tho that’s why I liked it.
“At the start of your turn, summon a copy of this minion for each spell cast by your opponent in his last turn”. There, not too confusing and it keeps the spirit of the card without locking the opponent out of the game.