I am what you would consider a dad legend player, I play distracted a lot while taking care of or helping wife with dinner or snuggling kiddos and was able to very easily go from 10k legend to 4k legend with the deck in a day of playing. Now back to 5k something, but the point is, is that the deck is for real and good!
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Random BS, GO! Decks rarely make the top of the lists.
It turns out shadowstepping 0 mana 5/4 rushes and 1 mana 3/3 3/3 double agents can be pretty good it seems and scabbs just adds a lot of fuel in general.
It seems like a deck that often takes damage early, but just secret passage as well as Maestra’s interaction (surprisingly make every card drawn discount gnoll, basically setting it to 4 by the first turn), seems pretty good, but not overbearingly so.
It doesn’t seem to hold any decks back from seeing play, and it doesn’t seem that bad to lose to or win vs and doesn’t seem to win by a mile. It often seems to take damage in the early part of the game, but doesn’t make powerful recovery plays until scabs, so that’s fine.
Also a lot of people play joke meme honestly bad but fun versions. so people remember the fun decks too.
Yeah, seems good, but healthy for a deck imo.
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mostly because it should still struggle vs dmg from hand and it´s kinda awkward to suddenly not be swarmed by OTK decks.
Also because if you look at the matchups it struggles especially vs Libram and Handlock that would have been normaly expected to rule the meta but are for some reason not overly popular.
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well… if you disregard top 100 that that play to advance to tourneys and such, people may be tired of playing handlock and libram.
truth is, burgle is a good deck helped by the reluctance of the players to play the “better” decks simply because they have played the “better decks” for FAR too long in a row.
Another point in favor of burgle is that it actively promotes control decks to be played and developed and not OTK decks, and a lot of the pros and more active players have grown tired of OTK decks… so promoting control is seen as a good thing.
Unfortunately, as every time VS reports come out… i expect a lot more burgle rogues to pop out, and that means that there will be a resurgence on the decks that feed on it like handlock and libram. but… oh well.
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sure, but that really hardly makes burgle rogue the best deck. It´s like people hyping Wildfire mage when it´s just profiting of people refusing to play good decks and still only makes it to tier 3.
So it is still surprising to see it make it to #1 on the report.
Also i´m not sure i´d call it burgle if you don´t run Cache, it´s just tempo Rogue with the tempo part of the burgle package.
Not sure if it´s actually good for the meta when it just leaves the strongest deck sleeping and getting away without adjustments till the next tournament.
it’s not uncommon (actually it is very common) to have an archetype not running one of the cards that “apparently” are made for the deck, it happens all the time. (see “handlock” running half of the “printed for handlock” cards as an example)
In cache’s case, the card is ok, but there are better cards than it (if you go for tempo).
Same for Cerathine. The card is just bad. Do you only call burgle rogue burgle rogue if it’s calling cerathine? What if it runs cerathine but omits the gnolls, is it now a burgle deck?
And etc.
the key feature of the deck is gaining tempo through burgle activated cards. so the name fits.
Now… if you want it to be named “tempo burgle rogue” and have a cache deck be named “value burgle deck”… then sure, you can do that, but it doesnt stop both decks being reliant on the burgle mechanic one way or another.
I´d argue the essence of Burgle Rogue is having to play around the burgled cards to win games, thus having a great variety in the gameplay. It´s why i like the archetype.
The current version VS shows is just a pretty linear aggro/tempo deck in a fancy costume, but the playpattern is similar from match to match.
And if i want that in Rogue i personally strongly favour just playing weapon rogue, it feels stronger and has some more depth for me, but that´s mostly personal preference.
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and how is current burgle rogue not doing that?
in fact, the burgled cards generation is every bit as strong as your selfproclaimed “pure” cache version (exluding cerathin, which as i said before is simply a terrible card).
The only difference is cache replaying cards, which is of dubious value, while in the normal version you play them only once.
with a good to decent mulligan you´re gameplan is to just get enough tempo going and then finish with some spelldmg from hand, ideally you will never play a burgled card, you only need them to gain the tempo for the gnolls/agents.
Ofc some times your gnolls are bottom ten and then you have to hope for the best with whatever you´ll discover, but itßs not really what you want the deck to do.
With a Cache list it´s all about setting up the right cards for your matchup for the Cache to gain ideal value.
Not saying that´s super strong currently, it´s just more intriguing to play for me.
but again, if i just want a strong Rogue deck to win a ton of games i can always go weapon, no need for a fake burglar.
i not looked at it but i can imagine the libram paladin matchup is atrociously bad for thief rogue, i can see them only win if eiher the pally plays really bad or you burgle out some crazy counters with your non rogue cards.
that’s wrong though.
even with perfect mulligan, 2 4/5s and a couple of 3/3s are not enough to finish off most decks, not when your spelldamage is just 2 wicked stabs.
despite the fact that your power boost comes from cheap gnolls, you do require to play the burgled cards. in fact, wand thief and recon is the way you dig for answers, damage, or draw.
You are making too much of a deal for a single card (cache).
it’s not like if you put in cache you dont rely on the tempo from gnolls and double agents. You rely on that as much as the normal deck.
the core identity of the two decks is the same. the difference is that in the end, after everything bugled is done, one has a finisher and the other value through replaying cards.
again, the generated cards are the same regardless if you include cache or not. Some will be usually bad (swash) some will be usually good (wandthief/recon).
that’s true.
as well as the matchup vs handlock is atrocious for rogue.
and the matchup vs control decks in general is bad for rogue.
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are you sure you´re refering to the VS list? that one runs smite aswell and you mostly dig for more burn once the dmg is done from the games i played around with it.
it´s really a straightforward tempo/aggro deck as far as i can tell (which is also just examplified by the bad matchups into libram, fel DH and handlock which have just all the tools to fight off aggro/tempo, it´s basically in the same archetype zone as face hunter)
by no means it´s a bad deck, it´s just not appealing to me as i like playing rogue for the high adaptivity and variance some of the decks offer, not for the more tempo oriented decks that are very consistent.
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you again fall to the same trap:
the adapatability and variance you want comes from discovering burgled cards. not from replaying them.
the deck you “want” (with cache) has the same exact generation/adaptability/variance as the tempo deck.
the tools for that, are exactly the same in both decks (double swash, double wandthief, double recon).
the fact that it also has a way to close games doesnt alter the fact that it is a burgle deck at its core.
what you are looking for is that one has a predefined wincondition, and the other one… doesnt.
similarly to how handlock doesnt rely on entitled customers or whatever the handsize demon summoning spell is called, because it has other cards to fill the same niche. doesnt make it any less of a handlock.
Having Smite or not is irrelevant, using handlock as the exact same comparison, is it not a handlock because it runs battlemaster? that card has nothing to do with handsize after all and is one of the deck’s finishers!
i think you have a very different burgle/cache in mind than i, the dekc i enjoy actually runs fleetrunner as a tempo option + the secret package, it can play tempo and value and you have to adjust in every match.
While the “burgle” list will just never go value if it has any other choice, nor can it win a value game vs sth like libram paladin. There´s not much adaptation. Sure, you include some cards from other classes, but it´s all for the same tempo/aggro gameplan.
can´t really speak about handlock as i don´t play warlock at all, i have no idea what an actual warlock conisseur would expect from a proper handlock deck (other than having a lot of cards in hand and some payoff), albeit i expect that the current naming of handlock is very unfortunate as the most important part of it actually is the Quest still and the handsize is more a happy coincidence of warlock having way too much draw.
the main reason handlock runs quest is for the 2 extra reductions for your flesh gaints with the heal after step 1 and 2, and those 2 step adds 6 extra dmg to your opponent offcourse and 6 health is very welcome cause of all your self dmg.
The end quest reward normally not get used unless you facing big minion taunt walls/slow control decks it mostly a last ditch effort.
But ye without the quest it probally end up to weak
Going to put my two cents worth in. Was skimming the posts above between shroud and eulrich and you ate spot on shroud when talking about using Reconnaissance and Wand Thief to find your answers, they often times give me either the stall cards I need to pull off a burst turn or add to the burst I need to finish off an opponent.
Libram paladin can be hard but they are not unbeatable. Depending on how game is going against them, you can go for tempo cards from your discover or disruption cards like devolving missiles and mass polymorph. If the game goes to ten mana you can set up a pretty big scabbs/smite/plundersr turn
In my opinion handlock is the hardest matchup for the deck, you gotta pray to kill em before their big turn or i have outlasted their big turn before and then burst them down.
Edit: more on the paladin match-up. The deck can do a pretty good job at keeping em off the board which is what ya want versus them. The longer you can stall their bugfs from happening the better chance of winning that matchup
if you are talking about the secret variant, then isn’t it the same exact thing to say:
“no you dont play burgle rogue, you play secret rogue with burgle cards!”
similar to how you are saying about this deck:
“it isnt burgle rogue, it is a tempo deck with burgle cards!”
and etc.
my end point is, that as long as a sizable portion of a deck is relying on a “package” then it is far more than acceptable to use that name.
in this case, we have 7 cards that burgle and 4 cards that reward for burgling. That’s 11/30. Add in the neutral* draw and misc options that you either way include in the 99% of rogue decks (swindles, steps, passages, etc), and you have something like 11/24 cards of a deck dedicated to burgle. that’s nearly half the deck dedicated to that gameplan.
so, someone saying “that’s not burgle” is kinda mindboggling to me, hence this conversation.
*(neutral as if “they dont belong to a package but are universal”)
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probably as to you look at what cards are in the deck and i look how it plays out in practice mostly.
and i like archetypes that are inherently messy, meaning they are not clearcut in their gameplan (which is why my most played classes are Rogue, Mage and Priest) - varying between tempo, burn and value from game to game (obviously leaning in one direction more than others, but all paths are generally open).
And as Mogkupopo just described the gameplan is just mostly the same for the Tempo(Burgle)Rogue, it´s get some dmg in and then finish with burn, so the defining characteristic for me is not the Burgle aspect, but the tempo. It´s not messy, and that messiness is what i want from a proper burgle deck.
Ofc that is a lot of personal preference and decks can be named however the community decides, but i think most names are kinda misleading (e.g. Handlock does not use any warlock specific hand-card other than the legendary guy despite there being a lot available, but mostly wins due to the quest/giant interaction).
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It’s not 1 card, your list is totally different and does different things. But both lists are more or less equal in the usage of burgle mechanic despite what you think.
in your case, as an example, it is not the absense of cache that change the gameplay. You have the whole secret package supporting your whole game.
(if you want proof of that, it’s is simple, remove the secret package from your deck and try to win games. you see how vastly differnt the deck will be regardless that your burgle cards remained the same.)
A whole lot of times, the match isn’t decided by the finisher, but by how you got there. As an example, you say that yours is a more burgle list because you win with cache. But that’s disregarding the fact that the match vs the paladin was not won out of the burgle, but out of the sapper (even if that one was playede 3 turns before the match ended), which is irrelevant to the burgle package. Or the hanar, or etc.
To you, it feels that ending with a burst finisher is what makes the deck, you completely skipped all the steps towards there and focused only on the very end of the match.
That’s why we disagree.
To me, it feels like you only look at the ending of the match rather than the entirety of it and what lead to that end. And so, you name things based on that front alone regardless of the rest of the deck.
As i said, when more or less half your deck is based around a mechanic, it is absurd to think that that mechanic isnt integral to the whole gameplan just because it isnt part of the finisher.
p.s. if you think that the vs list doesnt rely on making use of the burgled cards, i can only say that you have probably not have played it enough btw. those cards are vital to win games. As pointed above, wandthief and recon are often what win you games (again, regardless of the actual finisher).
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