And there are further ways to prevent that in those games if you wanted to through removed from the game effects like DD Designator.
I’d be happy with a card that let me just say “Sif,” and it’s deleted from the game if in their hand.
Or Odyn, or flash of lightning, etc…
There’s plenty of options in that game to permanently deal with a combo if you really want to.
While I don’t agree, let’s not pretend that it demands an abundance of skill. Its win conditions are evident for a capable player, allowing it to stand beside Rainbow Mage, Highlander Warrior, and similar decks.
Decks that require high skill are those with ever-changing win conditions depending on the draw and matchup, such as Zarimi Priest. Considering Warlock’s limited discover choices, also, I would classify it as a moderately skillful deck.
This. Skillful players can win with ever changing conditions regardless of good or bad draws. Wheel lock is an auto win if the person doesn’t have a specific counter, or you draw Sargeras and other perfect mulligans right off the bat. In some cases you can play wheel and go afk.
Plague decks make Reno decks obsolete.
Yeah… I disagree with this.
First off, Zilliax and Inventor Boom aren’t different bullet points, they’re the same bullet point and the best wincon. Just run Fizzle (no support needed) or Zola (with Greedy Partner and/or Audio Amplifier) so you can Neo-Denathrius your opponent multiple times.
Reno isn’t a bullet point at all. He’s removal, not a wincon.
Excavate is trash. Bit of a hot take but that’s pretty much what I meant by bad Brann decks.
So what remains is three wincons: Zilliax/Boom, Boomboss, and Ignis. I kinda forgot Ignis because idk I guess I just haven’t had it played against me much and when it has I haven’t lost, but I imagine it’s strong so from two to three wincons it is.
The highest “skill factor” deck in the format is Burn Shaman. That’s why it’s bottom of Tier 3 in D4-1 and high Tier 2 in T1KL. Very nearly +2 tiers.
Not to say that Zarimi Priest isn’t the better deck for skilled players. It absolutely is. It goes from low Tier 1 in D4-1 to actually the best deck in T1KL. That’s not as much of a “skill factor” as Burn Shaman, but it still has significant skill factor plus significantly more, idk what to call it, dumb power? The point is that it’s better to have a little of both, and Zarimi Priest qualifies.
That’s fine. You can disagree all you want but that is the reality.
If you look at the winrate statistics for cards in Brann Warrior decks, I think it shows very clearly that Inventor Boom is best wincon and Excavate is not very good. So I don’t think I’m the one arguing against reality here.
If anything I’m arguing against the stats myself by acting like Boomboss is playable. Don’t get me wrong, I love playing decks like Odyn Warrior and Burn Shaman and TNT is absolutely terrifying to my strategies; Boomboss is what puts a clock on setting up the Fizzle win as Burn Shaman. But overall Boomboss apparently performs even worse than Excavate. A Brann Warrior can probably get by with just Boom and Ignis honestly. Maybe shove Boomboss in an ETC or something.
I didn’t say which one has a better win rate. All i said was that it is a possible win condition.
I edited my previous post.
How many pieces of removal does one get to have before you deem them “disconnected from reality” what an inane thing to say lol…
The devs think they will make more money on the faster end of games vs slower games favored by control players soooooooooooo
IMPS appear… making idiotic claims about control players as if it makes any sense whatsoever…
Yeah so Agent Clown, how many pieces of removal can someone have in their deck before they become disconnected from reality as it were?
Does a 30 card deck get the same amount as a 40 card deck or should it have a couple more pieces of removal before their minds leave orbit?
I saw. My point of those listed cards is that they provide ways to setup wins against any number of decks instead of just trying to grind out a win with one specific condition like Odyn(which acts more like an old Fatigue Warrior). Old school control decks had very limited option for avenues of victory outside of possibly getting some tempo but more likely fatigue. Brann warrior gives a variety of ways vs a broad spectrum of decks.
The only time this is an issue is when it’s consistently earlier than aggro. Other that that combo is FUN.
You just hate it. This is your personal bias not rooted in anything other than your personal salt mine.
No, you shouldn’t. They are not even the same.
I don’t have an issue with dirty rat, mutanus, etc. I have an issue with “look at your opponent’s hand and take their most important stuff” because that’s stupid.
It isn’t inter acting in any way. It’s you just being a salty salt miner because you have prefences. It’s a you think.
Not when combo depends on drawing all the parts and not dying first.
Someone finishes their excavate, you want to just reach in and steal their reward and call that good game play.
I have no issues with rat, okani, mutanus, or otherwise trying to disrupt their plays… but discover is a bridge too far.
Maybe you should just try to kill them instead.
It is, just like using a board clear against an aggro deck is interaction.
Your own words describe it perfectly
Every card requires this, combo isn’t special about that. Aggro decks also have to draw their finisher cards without dying, or losing control of the board in the cases of cards like crusader aura or bloodlust.
It’s easier for combo decks to end the game in most cases because they just have to draw the cards
Another strategy that applies to every deck, and doesn’t negate that combo enjoys extra protection in hearthstone than literally any other strategy.
Hand stripping ability should be equally strong as the ability to end the game from hand alone.
Just like how removals need to be strong enough to handle whatever decks are currently able to throw at the board. And we generally don’t have to roll a dice to see if your AoE card clears the board.
When the removals aren’t in balance with the opponent win cons, the game breaks.
This is why no combo deck has ever been allowed to stay tier 1 for long, and never will. They create one sided gameplay by their nature in a way no other strategy does.
Define “for long”
Sif mage is here since I got back in November (probably been there for a while, too)
Nature OTK shaman just doesn’t die. Anything but crash of thunder not doing face dmg or flash nerf isn’t enough.
Odyn also looks like a cockroach
Also, I hard-disagree about combo decks being easier to win than aggro. Yes, i sometimes defend aggro decks in aggro vs control matchups because most people think it’s braindead easy to play. It’s not braindead easy, but it’s definitely not harder than Sif mage or OTK shaman.
Those decks require decisions and sacrifices because most of the time, the cards that you need for OTK are the ones you need to spend to survive long enough to OTK. Same with Odyn.
I’m not sure I understand this, but if I do, I liked the game better when removal/threat ratio was lower than 1. Now it’s kinda the opposite, lol. It’s legit game-breaking to leave one minion on the board. If it’s shaman spell dmg, you’re doomed. If it’s DH shopper shannanigan, you’re doomed. If it’s pally pre-nerf, you were doomed. There’s soo much removal, not playing a minon which does something immediately is a waste of mana in general.
Nothing in your post makes sense to me. Absolutely nothing xD
All 3 of those decks have eaten nerfs. Theyve been cockroaches because blizzard has resisted on actually breaking the otk part, just like what happened with ilgynoth.
Rainbow mage has been around, but it has struggled to have the same foothold and power level that nature shaman has repeatedly hit.
Odyn probably lasted the longest of the set at a high power.
From the perspective of not needing to play around removal, they definitely are. They have their own challenges like a tension between using combo pieces to survive or not, but they don’t really have to worry much at all about playing into removals to their entire game plan. Having a single other minion in hand drops the odds dirty rat stops their deck in half, assuming it’s even played while the key minion is in hand.
Or in the case if nature shaman, there is no key minion to even hit.
I actually agree here. Part of the reason I dislike what combo does to the game is that it tends to let decks run a much heavier ratio of sustain and removal than if they had to run more traditional threats. The more cards a deck needs to end a game, the less room there is to just stall, stay alive, and draw.
Like, when nzoth was originally a solid finisher, you had to run enough threats to empower it, and even then nzoth wasn’t an auto win card, so you needed backup threats. Your deck needed to go pretty damn heavy on threats in the late game, which naturally weakened it to aggro.
In a match between two decks like that, the winner usually was the one that ran the most threats, not the one with the most removals. In combo metas, that gets turned on it’s head a whole lot.
I don’t think combo deserves any extra protection compared to a traditional threat. It should be one of many ways a deck tries to win, not the sole one that works most of the time because there are frighteningly few ways to stop it, and even those require blind luck
That is an entirely different issue, but still a valid one.
Yep, I think that’s what’s keeping mage tier 2/3 and Warriors tier 1 - all warriors need are 2 cards and they can pretty much play it any time they feel like
Mage and Shaman both need a lot of cards in their combo all at once, too
I agree, but I still wouldn’t like for people to randomly start destroying my win cons. Priest already had something similar (discover a card from your opponent hand/deck and if forged, steal it) and it got me tilting and conceding left and right.
Soo happy that’s not meta anymore. I’m already tilted enough by random Kurtrus DH-s killing my whole hand of minions because I mostly run cheap stuff, imagine if they also started killing my spells? No thanks.
If we do need to nerf combo decks, we got plenty of room to do it.
-destroy their survivability/tone down their removal - this one is very important. Shaman has to decide if he’s going to go all-in for the OTK or play a control, sustain game, he shouldn’t be doing BOTH with one card. I don’t think Warrior with Brann+Zilliax and Reno even need mentioning anymore, it’s old news. That has to be dealt with ASAP because it’s meta-definining, possibly more than shopper DH (unsure about that, though)
-Make their combos include more cards (except Shaman, he’s already complicated enough)
-Force them to include minions (shaman has that limitation, Mage does, too, but Warrior doesn’t - at least the Brann one) because otherwise they’re just playing a solitaire game where their removal, card draw and survivability are all the same cards.
Also, I must admit, besides the broken Shaman, I kinda don’t mind the OTK meta. I don’t really enjoy it, but I don’t tilt as much when Sif kills me or I get Odyn-ed down as much as it tilts me to have all my stuff removed and then one shot by 1 single card which summons a gazillion zilliaxes with rush that hit me face or when I get 18 cards removed from game.
One can say, besides the outliers mentioned, I even enjoy it, because it’s only natural that you fight OTK decks with what I prefer the most - pure aggro.
Aggression is everything. Nothing as satisfying as seeing a warrior rope and boil under pressure turn 4. Where’s your armor now???
Good. They need to make more cards to make Reno decks obsolete imo.
really good they dont that way we can win vs the" do nothing " controld ecks
so they lose for not playing threats is extremely boring to play vs decks which go into fatigue without having played any threats the whole game
Of course you enjoy stomping on your prey. Aggro will usually beat combo, so youre loving it. That is what we call a bias. But as soon as control gets a foothold, you cry like a little girl about others doing the same to you. That is what we call hypocrisy.