What I perceive HS balance devs do instead of balance

Multiplayer Discussion
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Get me wrong all you want. I play this game competitive/ casual for the chance a deck I build does well for a bit. I enjoy and only invest in the paladin class. I have made many paladin decks from the pseudo-top tiers to the most random make-shift. Every time I play a new expansion, or invest in one, I still only play paladin, but that subjectivity has given a lot of insight on how poor the class has played over the past two years.

Hearthstone is a game of math… some simple like the game mechanics, some complex like mmr and their use of rng. It is mostly the game mechanics, the simple math, that frustrates me and many other players. Not because of the difficulty, but the poor poor poor lack of foresight each expansion brings to game balance.

So, we as investors, players, bored enthusiasts begin the expansion where new cards enter the standard rotation as it is called. Many cards are marketed for their appeal and effects and very rarely will cards have similar turn or game-changing effects between the classes. Each is supposed to be unique playing on the game’s mechanics to empower each player to win with a certain understanding of cards to counter plays. So, why then is any class pushed to stagnation immediately upon release spending entire expansions unable to compete or satisfy the investment in time from the player.

Important: a deck full of counters for one class will not have a reliable win condition. A counter is needed when one or more matchups are unfavoured. So, usually players run some counters and focus on their deck’s strategy. When the strategy turns into having to add more and more counters to compete and still have a goal for your deck, the game fails to reward or satisfy the time spent. What is the solution?

The solution has always been to make those classes offering the lowest competition … more competition in the next set, or like what is happening recently, make up for development mistakes by adding some cards that will bring these distant competitive classes closer to their analytics’s expectations. Snip-snap is a great example of this recently. A great card for mech players, but was brought in to help any class with mech issues or with a lack of power.

As a paladin player, I saw this card as a way of giving paladin a deck worth competing with. Mine and other’s best efforts still could not break the incredulously imbalanced Mage, Warrior, Hunter, Warlock, Druid decks. So, I went with the conclusion that Paladin was not a class Blizzard had properly balanced in quite some time.

But what is balance? A feeling like having a full roster of decks and cards and at every game feeling like there is something going on for you, the player. That your decisions in basic math can compete with a similar set of random maths. Watch a pro series in hearthstone (streamed weekly) and you will notice only a few decks being played by a small portion of classes. After I watch these videos, I realize if I am not playing those classes I have no chance to compete.

Those that have realized this too give up, or should. So, why am I, the player, punished for playing this game? There is nothing wrong with the art, animations or look of the game. Static and moving graphics, interactive and sfx audio is also self-explanatory. The decision to add rules and numbers to symbolize the game’s ruleset is not self explanatory, as it aims to distinguish and uniquely preserve the game itself. When the game’s rules are weighted to one side, (think of weighted dice) guess what numbers always show up? The one’s that are weighted. I wonder if someone can add some examples of the consequences of cheating with weighted dice? I wonder what people do/did to those cheaters?

So, why are the classes weighted to perform better than others? I have a few thoughts.

  1. The balance devs are rushed…at Blizzard…(hard to believe)
  2. The rules/card devs who were hired are incompetent or lack enough experience to do the job (easier to believe since ideas are being taken still from MTG)
  3. The system was rigged to begin with (likely)

I am fighting for game balance among all classes and want to promote a healthy conversation to make a better game experience. If you are a dev reading this, I hope you consider your actions before cheating players’ expectations. If your manager is pushing a deadline just don’t puss out when more QA is needed. You have a great job, sure, but we all know what happens to nepotic organizations, or wait, is Blizzard the same success story it was fifteen years ago.

Concerned,

Tayvoryn

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It’s important to bear in mind that the tournament scene, while somewhat more relevant to the overall metagame now that Specialist is a thing, is still quite a bit different from the metagame to be found on the ladder. You will never not have a “best class” even if the dividing performance factor is only a fraction of a percent, and in highly competitive tournament metas the representation gets massively skewed because most players feel that they MUST choose the absolute optimum class, or try to play something specifically to beat it, etc. On the ladder, you can pick pretty much anything that isn’t crap and ascend with it if you pilot it well enough as we’ve seen many players do.

I’m extremely curious about what brought you to the claim that Priest is somehow “incredulously imbalanced” when Mech Paladin is a solid Tier 2 deck, with none of Priest’s offerings being able to make such a claim. Nomi can be pretty darn good when piloted well, but by that same notion so can Wrath Paladin.

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You had a point up until “increadously imbalanced Mage, Priest, Warrior, Hunter, Warlock and Druid.”

First of all, Priest is competitive garbage rn. 2nd of all, if you are complaining about 8/9 classes, that means 8/9 classes are competitive, which means its a fairly balanced meta.

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Paladin was the top class for all of The Year of the Raven except for the Giggling Inventor meta.

At one point Paladin had, Baku, Genn, and Holy Wrath all being top tier decks covering aggro, midrange, and combo play styles.

If you think the class played poorly the last 2 years, it’s a problem with you and not the Paladin class.

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Again, it’s about balance. Don’t white knight :stuck_out_tongue:

Even if you believe the paladin class, exclusively, was top a couple years ago that still means balancing issues are occurring and have been for some time. Thank you Macros for helping light that detail.

I can agree that I do not see priest in this meta much either and should not have been included in the list. My apologies.

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I am sorry, but I think this is the first time I met a paladin only player or even a paladin main, they are so rare.

It’s like meeting an endangered creature.
I don’t want to read anything that long lol, sorry. But best wishes from me

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Your perception of balance seems heinously flawed, from the inclusion of priest to the exclusion of Paladin from recent history as a top class.

If you call people white knights just because they point out your comments are I’ll informed you aren’t looking for a discussion, just another uneducated individual to praise your erroneous conclusions.

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You need to understand that Blizzard isn’t necessarily selling a balanced complex math equation. They are selling a feeling. An experience that provides the feeling of being a warrior or a paladin. Even in WoW in Arena there were the strongest three or four classes which rotated on a periodic basis based on balance patches and tier set releases. From a cost perspective its probably more efficient to create a diverse set of cards that hit all the right customer feelings you are trying to evoke limiting to balancing only three or four classes rather than perfectly balancing 9 classes and potentially losing the fantasy charm because the game feels like just plugging in numbers in a calculator. Part of this game requires that the player evaluate the power level of cards which means inherently there will be imbalanced classes/cards/situations that the player will need to understand and navigate. The original poster probably would be advised to adjust their expectations to something more reasonable.

Additionally, even though some classes are weak in terms of winning consistently, that doesn’t necessarily mean a player can’t have an enjoyable, meaningful experience with those classes in smaller doses.

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What it really boils down to is the fact that Hearthstone - LIKE ALL OTHER CCGS - is an asymmetrically balanced game. There are always going to be smaller areas that have temporary periods of imbalance, but the larger whole will be relatively well balanced.

An Inherent reality of asymmetric balance is that Perfect balance is not really possible … nor should it be expected. If you repeat that over and over again until the true meaning of those words sinks in then you’ll be on the right path.

A player of a CCG should not pick one “corner of the kingdom” and try to master that smaller portion to the exclusion of all else. If they do, then the nature of asymmetric balance will sometimes come around on the bad side of that corner of the kingdom. Such a person would feel like the OP does … that the “game” was bad in an overall sense (at least at that point in time).

But the reality is the larger “game” is just fine. Only that corner of the kingdom is (temporarily) experiencing a rough patch. If the person sits tight and waits it out, then that temporary rough patch will hit an upswing and all will be well again.

But wise players will not stake out just one corner of the kingdom. They’ll have a variety of interests so if one area is currently less favorable then they can just slide over to a different corner and be just fine.

The problem - OP - is that you are looking at Hearthstone as if its balance was a single dish, when really it’s a large banquet. The chicken you picked may not be so great at the moment. So instead of whining at how bad the chicken is (while still heroically trying to choke down a ton of chicken), maybe you could instead look around at all the people who are enjoying the great ribs, the soup, the salad, or the desserts.

Just a thought.

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Oh my god.

Hearthstone is literally like going to Golden Corral for a meal.

#mindblown

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Paladin was top a couple of months ago, not years ago.

Either you are attempting to misrepresent me, you are so confused that you believe Odd Paladin happened two years ago, or you are stuck in a time loop and actually posting from 2021. So please stop the suspense and tell us how Episode IX of Star Wars ends.

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Hearthstone’s class balance is anyway. :slight_smile: You gotta watch out for that tray of fish that’s been simmering under the lamp all day…

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Those sliders, tho…:drooling_face::drooling_face:

And salad. I don’t know what it is about buffet salad, but I’ve loved it ever since I can remember going to Ryan’s as wee lad.

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Delicious is delicious.

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Well put. Again, for those strange one tricks such as myself maybe this is just not the game for me. I never espouse that I was a good player and maybe everyone here is. Thus why I make a post. These are not the droids you were looking for.

Well, one less player now. So, hopefully the competition will rev up for everyone. Happy rng everyone.

Thanks for the advice

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That’s not what his point was.

People who ‘play one class’ will inevitably feel slighted because this game is asymmetrically balanced, and classes fall in and out of favor because there will be, however slight, always a differential in power between decks and by extension classes as well.

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NIce one boys! Clean and swift as usual. Think i will refer to you guys as the anti HS Rebels.

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I am enjoying the Pirate Stew :bowl_with_spoon: Murloc Legs :poultry_leg: and Secret Hunter BBQ Ribs :meat_on_bone:

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Balance is partially addressed through weighted RNG.