i played atleast 7 other card games and card disruption is fine and common in all games… but theotar is so overpowered and at a low cost that that one card can take away players win condition and disrupt your whole game plan and make u cant play any effective combo decks
5 Likes
Like I said in another thread, just make him swap random cards.
Him letting players choose cards makes him too consistent and he gives too much information about what is in your opponent’s hand.
4 Likes
Your first mistake is having only one win condition.
No way. Do you want to have Denathrius go up to 70%+ play rate?
And he’s no where near consistent enough to render Denathrius decks just mediocre. They’re still great even with him around. And why is that? Because Theo hits the main card you want LESS than 50% of the time. But everyone wants you to believe it’s 100%.
Furthermore, most decks have multiple win cons. Spooky Mage has 4. FOUR. So even if you hit 1, it does virtually nothing. Which is exactly why Spooky Mage does well. Beast Hunter has SEVERAL as well.
The hate for Theotar is so misdirected.
Fact is if Theotar was so broken, Beast Hunter and Spooky Mage wouldn’t be top decks. They are because he isn’t.
The hate is totally unjustified and exaggerated. If Theotar was hitting 80%+ you’d have a point. He’s no where near that. 9 cards in hand he has a 30% chance which is garbage…especially considering the other player can just Theotar back further eliminating the impact.
Is it possible that the reason beast hunter and spooky mage are doing well in the meta, is because Theotar is in almost every deck? Their resilience to his effect is surely a part of it, and More decks will gain this resiliency as more cards are released. If Theotar became swap random cards, it would weaken him substantially, but the card is the most un fun card for non griefers ever so it would be worth it. If your concern is sire being over played after a theo nerf, I would say reverting warrior nerfs would make control warrior the perfect counter to a sire denathrius meta.
If you ask me Denathrius and Theo both need to be slapped, along with
Brann, Reno etc. No more do- over cards and no more magic answers.
Draw well, or; play smart until you draw well, or lose.
You should not have a bad draw rescued by a single card, nor should you have lousy playing be rewarded with a win from a single card.
1 Like
I don’t think those decks are doing WELL because of Theotar in other decks, I would argue they’d be doing BETTER if Theotar wasn’t in the meta. If you took Theotar out, many decks would just get crushed and steamrolled as they have no decent counter to all the combo cards those decks are running.
If Theotar was swap random cards, it would be virtually unplayable. In fact, I’d bet money you’d never see him get played except for fringe times. If it’s unreliable and has a chance to hurt yourself, it won’t see play. For the exact same reason the 50% chance to reduce all cards in your hand by 1 50% chance to increase by 1 sees NO play. Those cards almost never make it or see play.
It doesn’t matter if people think Theotar is “unfun”. He’s a necessary evil to existing necessary evilS (plural).
The concern isn’t just that sire would be more played, but that all those cards that don’t have to worry about disruption would see more play.
Do people NOT remember the Combo heavy meta we were in just recently? It was absolutely horrible. It was called one of the worst metas of all time. You have an impending doom and there’s nothing you can do about it.
Seriously, does NO one remember how AWFUL the meta was when Quest Warlock was in the meta? It was extremely hated.
Sure, we can buff warrior and make control warrior great…but that’s not going to change anything like you think. If Control Priest struggles hard against Beast Hunter and Spooky Mage and Ramp Druid, what makes you think Warrior will see success? Warrior would be equally struggling.
We’ve got tons of these powerful HAND cards that can’t be dealt with ON BOARD but can only be dealt with WHILE IN HAND. That’s why Theotar is necessary.
If these ridiculously strong cards that generate power IN HAND weren’t as prevalent as they are right now, you’d see less Theotar.
You can’t just slap Theo with a major nerf without also addressing the other cards that get stronger the longer they are in hand. Sure, a Theo nerf to 5 wouldn’t be bad…but that’s not the issue people have the card. No one is complaining a turn 4 Theo ruined their day. They are complaining because Theo is played at the right time as their card in hand gets stronger to the point it gets stolen. 5 Mana nerf does nothing to the complaints. Any other nerf other than Mana nerf would basically kill the card, and the meta would instantly be filled with combo cards you can’t deal with.
I think people need to look at how many cards in standard we have that are problems WHILE THEY ARE IN HAND getting stronger that you cannot interact with. Think about it.
Demon Hunter Hero card is getting stronger and stronger in hand as things die.
Priest Hero card is getting stronger and stronger in hand as things die.
Denathrius
Kelthuzad
Mordresh
Relics
Xy’mox
Jace Darkweaver
Kazakusan
Shadehound
Altimor
The list goes on and on and on
We’re in a meta where we have more cards than EVER that get stronger and build as they sit in your hand and we want to nerf one of the only real interactions with those cards and just keep mutanus (minion only) and vol’jin (minion only) as basically the only ways to really try to disrupt?
You guys gotta be kidding me. This meta would suck so hard. Everyone would just be building up these cards with no fear whatsoever.
1 Like
Then I say hit them all. Team 5 has simply gone 'round the twist with the level, and the amount of garbage cards that flip the table.
As someone who plays Theo out of necessity, I also think he needs a nerf. Not a huge nerf, mind you, but a nerf big enough to make it so he doesn’t slot into every deck. Maybe increase his cost to 5-Mana or alter his effect so the card your opponent gets is completely random. This way playing him doesn’t give as much of an overwhelming advantage.
They don’t need to hit them all. That would change the meta they want. They obviously want this to be a HAND building meta. With that meta, it needs to have ways to deal with those HAND building cards.
What you’re basically asking is for them to just delete all those cards and change the meta completely. I understand your response is likely “GREAT DO IT THEN” but reality is, this IS what they want because they designed it that way. Asking Theotar to get changed is just begging to shoot yourself in the foot.
I understand this isn’t you, but many of these players just want to have a hand buffing meta with no real interaction with their hand buffing and it’s just crazy talk. The game would completely suck. The meta is already lackluster because of the design choice, taking away the only real way to deal with the lackluster meta is just begging for it to be worse.
i agree with this. How you play used to matter. Now it’s secondary to draw and whim.
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Unreliable disruption is the normal throughout all of hearthstone history. Theotar is the first virtual “catch all”. Disruption is supposed to have draw backs because the potential swings for disruption cards are higher than pretty much any other type of card in the game. Theotar is also not the only hand disruption in standard, its merely the best ever printed and is single handedly warping the meta. Priest has thief cards and can steal anything with enough time, warrior got a 1 mana dirty rat spell, mage got objection (best secret ever printed other than iceblock), warlock got immolate, and of course mutanus. These are all reasonable answers to a denathrius deck that is playing slow. If your class doesn’t have one, your game plan has to shift. Thats the entire point of having different classes, different play styles. Every class having the best disruption card ever printed is spitting in the face of the core gameplay and class identity hearthstone was built on. If a class can’t disrupt a combo deck, they have options. Either become a combo deck themselves, or more likely play aggro. Theotar is a card from the blizzard devs who suck at playing and probably suck at building decks. Yes, he enables deck archetypes that normally would not be able to be played in a certain meta, but more often its just a coin flip between meta decks. Theotar is not necessarily an auto win, but it allows bad players to basically steal wins more often than it should for a 4 mana card with zero downside.
One thing I’d love to see change with Theotar is to have him work more like Ghastly Gravedigger (discover a card in the opponent’s hand and shuffle it into the deck). I really like this card but its extremely narrowly playable (strictly in Secret Rogue only). Shuffling a target card back into the opponent’s deck feels a lot more fair as the card isn’t stolen away or removed from the game, and with something like Denathrius, this also denies potential infusions until the card is redrawn. Control decks are supposed to walk a fine line in order to survive against OTK combos or win buttons, and should generally lose to them more often than they win due to their inability to pressure. Delaying/stymieing a huge burst of damage feels far more reasonable than just taking the win condition away.
I actually like Theotar because I tend to play decks that have many paths to victory rather than relying on one specific card or combo, and I also enjoy playing Control Warrior (when its decent and not polarising af), so he benefits the kind of game I like to play. That said, I don’t think his current form is quite correct and would prefer to see something like I’ve talked about above.
I can attest to this. I have been having fun with Thief Priest, and use Theotar a lot. He whiffs far more often than people’s confirmation bias would lead you to believe. First off, Denathrius isn’t always in my opponent’s hand when I use Theotar. Secondly, even if Denathrius is in my opponent’s hand, I very often miss it.
Theotar is not overpowered. If you are having trouble because of Theotar that is a you problem. You need to have a plan B. That is, you need an alternative win condition for times when Denathrius is stolen or destroyed. Relying on one card to win comes with that risk. So, decide if you want to take that risk.
Players want to be left alone while they assemble their win condition. Interaction is not for them. I say then go play solitaire.
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Whiff or no, the card is too much. Denathrius is too much, and cards that buff in hand are the worst design choice ever made by Team 5.
Speaking of whiffs, this entire expansion should be described that way.
Hand disruption is fantastic to a degree. Too much of it and it feels terrible. Fortunately, Theotar is a legendary minion and so the player has to first either mulligan or draw Theotar. Second, the player needs to hope their opponent’s win condition relies on one card and that that card is in the opponent’s hand. Lastly, the Theotar must get lucky and have the option to steal that win condition (typically Denathrius these days). The card’s power is being blown out of proportion. I understand it feels bad sometimes but when dealing with cards like Denathrius cards like Theotar are necessary. And so if you nerf Theotar you must also nerf Denathrius because Theotar is virtually the only defense against Denathrius.
As for Denathrius I agree that the card is problematic. It isn’t that the card has a high drawn or mulligan winrate. The card feels absolutely terrible in that it feels like an inevitability and that there’s a clock on the match. It can feel like there’s nothing you could have done to prevent it. What’s more is that the card is literally in ~50% of decks. I thought the card was pretty cool at first, but at this point I am also tired of it. I want to see it neutered and I want to disenchant my golden copy. 
I get that you like the card, but it is hated second only to Denathrius.
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From my perspective, it’s liked as much as it’s hated. The playerbase is really split on this card.
I entirely understand hating Theotar. I also entirely understand liking Theotar.
I don’t think that’s true. I’m on Cord Reddit and Twitter.
Players really hate the card.
I imagine you hang out with like-minded players, though. I don’t know that what you’re seeing is necessarily an indication that most players hate the card. Admittedly you can certainly be correct. It’s one of those situations where we just can’t say with certainty.