The problem with theotar

He costs 4 mana. By comparison, Mutanus, the premium disruption of previous iterations costs 7, that’s almost half. Furthermore, theotars disruption is at least 3 times more effective, but more like 10 to 100 times given that on average most players care about not just minion cards, and theotar can choose from 3 options. The card results in many non games (I know a vocal minority of those who are on the forums seem to love this but I don’t.)

Cost needs to be increased to at least 7 if not 8. Theotar should not be an effective defense for greedy decks against aggro or tempo, as it is today.

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This is what people asked for to the devs non stop for years and when we finaly get it all hell breaks .

Week after week ,month after month ,year after year , more disruption, cheaper disruption, bring back dirty rat , combo decks are the devil bla bla bla.

Be careful what you wish for , Blizzard is guilty of not knowing that people have no idea what they realy want and complain regardless.

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People don’t know what is good for them or the meta? Shocking! :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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Yes, just like you can’t see that theotar is not stealing game from you if you are not relying on broken win from hand nonsense :joy::joy::joy:

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I dont even want to run theotar. But i have to because of brann, denathrius and all the other cards you lose to regardless of how well you play.

we need some way to interact with combos or herocards that is not just otk´ing faster, theortar is absolutely essential for the game, if anything we need more such tools.

and if you look at the meta it is far from gamebreaking, druid still wins most of it games with denathrius despite theo in a lot of decks. Same for the mage hero.

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I think Theotar should be nerfed but not THAT drastically. Just a mana increase to 5 should be enough. My biggest problem with the card is when you use him with Brann and utterly trash your opponents 4-5 card hand.

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The only problem I see with theotar is that it perhaps works better in the decks with crazy win conditions than against them and punishes lack of draw more than otk.

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Well, it doesn’t really do that. He doesn’t really have a particularly impressive performance compared to the other cards in decks like ramp druid, compared to say, control warrior, where he is literally one of the best things you can do.

The win conditions in the current good decks that are going late enough to run Theotar are much, much stronger than Theotar is himself, so for the decks that have those win conditions, he’s basically just a backup card to recover from something being stolen, or to prevent the opponent inevitability from happening first.

For decks that don’t have as decisive of a plan, Theotar helps to make sure you don’t have a 90% loss rate to ramp druid.

None of the control decks have much of an issue with having a sizeable hand. The rest of the field generally should be playing aggressively enough so that Theotar can’t safely be played just in case you have a relevant card to steal at that time, so the size of your hand matters far less.

In most decks using Theotar they also have to be careful when they use him so that they don’t have to give you anything you can use well. I’ve had a great number of opponent Theotar swaps that ended up in my favor.

He does punish more passive decks more harshly that rely on cards that you have to hold and also struggle to keep the hand size large, but that’s not exactly a huge number of decks, and those tend to have pretty bad consistency issues in the first place that keep them from being particularly playable.

So, extra harming bad decks isn’t really a flaw of Theotar. He’s not the reason the deck is bad. Decks like those tend to be hyper weak to other things too, like silences, board clears, things that go tall/wide, etc., Simply because they struggle to keep their hand full of options while relying on a swing card to carry the game for them.

The problem with Theotar does not have as clear-cut of a solution as you suggest. I believe it should stay at 4-mana and be changed into a highlander card. It would reflect badly on even classes that mainly play for control such as Warlock, Mage, and Paladin. Although the viability of even decks outside of Warlock’s, and to some extent Shaman’s, has always been questionable, Theotar gives them a chance to stay alive and do better against the most oppressive combo decks in the ladder.

Another benefit of it is that Theotar cannot be abused in even decks. I believe that nudging it towards highlander territory IS the way to go about the Theotar problem. Furthermore, this would make room for the return of Highlander decks in Standard.

At 5-mana, it would only serve to the short-term benefit of Standard players, in that it would come down a turn later, and create fewer opportunities for Druid’s opponents, as they would have to commit even more mana to play Theotar in hopes of disrupting Druid’s one of many win conditions.

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Theo basically means Paladin can realistically never run Cariel again. Was Cariel really that game breaking, again?

If you change the requirement to be a highlander card, it would never see play. If it was good enough to make Highlander decks work, you would already see Highlander decks, as it is already an insta add for any possible highlander decks. Moving it to 5 would make it harder to combo with Brann, and if the only defence to not move it to 5 is the druid matchup, maybe Druid should get hit with a nerf too.

If you say so I’ve only ever seen him used in decks with denathrius and quest priest all just trying to steal each others win conditions.

If you watched the masters finals lately, it’s pretty much Theotar deciding the games.

This is getting ridiculous when every deck runs Theotar because it’s too good.

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Well, those are the decks both trying to run late game strategies and most likely to need to stop them from their opponents because they may not be able to outrace them.

If you don’t run Theotar in those decks you just lose to the OTK or inevitability you can no longer interact with simply because they drew it faster.

You can run cariel. I do. Opponent doesn’t know when to theotar against a paladin.

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You cannot run Pally ANYTHING right now. I’m literally playing Pally in D5 right now and I have literally had my board cleared for 27 consecutive turns. 27 consecutive turns of literally playing a board card and watching it cleared. Explain how we make it to turn 8 again?

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I don’t think a lot of people read the op, I’m not suggesting getting rid of theotar, if you love that card so much and you find the only way to deal with late game combos is such a heavy handed approach as theotar, then fine, have him.

What I’m saying is at his mana cost, he is way under costed, and this conclusion can be arrived at in a multitude of ways.

For example, you can look at how many decks run him, pretty much every greedy deck out there auto includes him.

As another person pointed out he was the main win condition that resulted in non games or wins at the master’s, which is basically a 4 mana card requiring zero set up to win games at the highest level of play, yay, thrilling stuff.

He targets and punishes decks that do not run combos, but require a few key cards to perform, for example, rogue is built around this archetype, 90 percent of rogue cards are support or cards that feed into big pay off cards that are brain dead easy to steal. So he effectively targets an entire class for free.

What I’m proposing is raising his cost to something more appropriate, anything below 6 mana is inappropriate, and he really should cost 8 mana with a 7/7 body.

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I just ran 3 games straight of purposely overdrawing my hand to have max cards. Cariel was Theo’d all 3 games with max cards in hand. Not only is Theo broken, the discover mechanic is clearly rigged to focus higher cost cards.

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Or more simply add a restriction, like “highlander” or “infuse”.

Literally anything, it makes no sense that we have the best tech card in the game playable on curve in any deck but aggro, because it’s just that good.

7 mana would make it unplayable, maybe only druid and priest could afford it