Why the hell paladin wich is a tempo deck is able to drop crusader that generates 5 cards, lidarin that generates 10, cast 4 librams of hope, and have infite value in stats with 0 mana spells, these things should correspond to a control deck not aggro bs.
Edit: i know paladin is tempo - midrange but the early game is so brutal you could call it aggro too.
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Um, having by far the most value is the exact strategy of a midrange deck, and Pure Paladin is pretty much a raw midrange deck. It wins by having way more value than everyone else. Against aggro it tries to outmuscle their aggression and survive it, and against control it tries to overwhelm their ability to defend themselves. In both cases they are using the same basic theory: if they have on average more valuable cards, they will win as long as they can access that value.
Youâre not really being mad at Paladin, youâre mad at the sheer existence of midrange as a deck archetype.
I do think Pure Paladin is crappy design, but my issue is that it offers minimal pilot control over the matchup. Either your cards get the job done on curve or you lose, because good players steamroll you with other decks and you are brutally fragile against disruption.
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You got it wrong, Control decks have the most value than everyone else. The devs gave paladin more Late game and value than any control deck. Control deck should win the value match up. Clearing the board and generating cards in order to stabilize is the feat of control in any card game but paladin wich is midrange - tempo oriented outvalues any deck in the late game wich makes no sense at all. Look at the definition of midrange in the HS wiki or card games in general.
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The deck definitely heavily one sided when you play it. It still doesnât feel as strong as it should be though. You often choke out with the librams, and a premature flooding on your opponentâs side while you bottom deck your hard AoE means itâs game over. Consecration and Libram of Justice alone canât stabilize; you definitely need both of them on hand.
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Both of these things are false.
1- the version of paladin that does what you describe is absolutely NOT an aggro deck. Itâs a mid-range deck that has some late game reach with pen flingers or sustain with healing, depending what kind of build youâre running. Several decks out-value most paladin builds in the late game unless youâre talking about the pen-flinger variant, which is more like a control deck than anything else.
2- The dynamic of aggro and control youâre describing is way too simplistic to talk intelligently about the game or really understand the meta. I know that sounds insulting and thatâs not my goal, but itâs the harsh truth, the way youâre talking about the game is far more simple than the way it actually plays.
Itâs hard to respond much more specifically than that because there are a variety of different paladin builds out there. The builds running Pure cards, Goody Two-Shields and Murgur have a more aggressive early game but absolutely cannot out-value control decks in the late game (you lose card advantage quickly and even a god-tier Liadrin shouldnât be able to compete with a real late-game win con).
The more late-game focused Libroom builds can potentially out-value you later with the penflinger synergies, but a lot of their card slots arenât super aggressively statted and they fight for board to stabilize early on, not to kill you.
And both of those builds have happy mediums they fall in with different card choices.
So anyway, Paladin is good, but itâs very beatable. How you do it as a control deck would depend on what kind of Paladin it is and what kind of control deck you are.
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definitely not an aggro deck that smacks face while filling board and buffing and smacking face every turn yep. not running out of gas doesnt mean youre not aggro it means youre better than aggro.
try to make it less obvious that you main it
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I donât main it, btw. I just understand what the deck is and isnât capable of. How to beat it, how to win with it.
Not everything that puts threats on the board or swings with weapons is aggro.
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yeah sure
Yes itâs easy to understand what the deck is, it is better than aggro at early game, outvalues control mid to late game and on top of all that it still dominates mid game
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If it were as good at everything as you think it is it would be dominating the meta at higher ranks. It isnât, it dominates at lower ranks.
You know what that means, right? It means play better and youâll beat it more.
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ETC warrior would pretty reliably beat it. They donât have good answers to Rattlegore if theyâre playing pure and only have Silas if theyâre not. The ETC combo is very good against them since they can only win by sticking minions on the board and barring an insane opening on their part will inevitably succumb to the combo once you draw it.
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Uh, have YOU looked at the HS Wiki. Hereâs a quote
âTypically midrange decks are built on the theory that every single card in the deck has a greater sole value than any card in the opponentâs deck.â
Mid-range uses early game minions and medium price cards while control uses removal and lategame bombs, but that doesnât mean control automatically wins in the lategame.
sure is easy to cherrypick isolated quotes, let me paste from the wiki too:
âA midrange deck is a type of deck somewhere between an aggro deck and a control deck in pace, seeking to attain victory during the MIDGAMEâ
âMidrange decks generally try to control the board during the early game, before moving into a more aggressive role MID-game with medium-costing minions and spells, with the goal of WINNING BEFORE THE LATE GAMEâ.
âIn contrast, when playing against a control deck, the midrange player needs to adopt a more aggressive strategy, with the goal of defeating the opponent BEFORE they are able to play their key cards, or put their main combos into play. This early game tempo combined with the longevity of midrange decks often leads to the victory for the midrange deckâ.
âTypically midrange decks are built on the theory that every single card in the deck has a greater sole value than any card in the opponentâs deck.â YOUR quote only applies to midrange vs aggro, if you think that every single card in midrange 3-6 mana has more value than control 7-10 mana i hope youâre not serious.
Nobody is saying that control has more winrate vs midrange, i hope you understand that paladin decks have brutally both tempo and late game cards, when the mechanic of value and generation should be inherent to control, for instance, Libram of hope is a brutally discounted midrange card wich is OP but you can deal with it, the problem is when a 9 mana card comes back and back again, that is NOT part of midrange mechanics in card games. Youre supposed to run low on cards vs control in late game and that only shows how busted paladin is. No wonder the 3 classes with more control or value cards besides warrior are all top 3 worst winrate.
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Youâre mad that they can play 2 extra copies of an 8/8 divine shield? Really?
If Pure was actually busted then why does it perform worse the better the players are? Why is it so unpopular with actually competent players?
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Appears you dont know what âfor instanceâ means , its not only the 8/8s, its the 32 heal, the hand full of librams, the free 5 cards in a 7/7 body, thats for the value part and im not mentioning the tempo part wich implies 16 weapon damage, more if they run naaru, the 5/7 taunt, the divine shields etc.
You probably dont get to see it bc you must be a me go face decks, 5 minutes long games playerâŚ
You want me to talk about how shaman is ruining the ladder? obviously is op, and the fact warriors or rogues put in check some paladins doesnt mean it isnt busted vs other classes
anyways⌠cya
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I donât get to see it because I play at legend where players are somewhat competent and thus Pure Paladin is neither popular nor especially powerful.
Being mad at Liadrin or Crusader reload is nuts. Other decks like Warrior just instakill you for their reload. Or have actually great card draw. You want to be mad at endless resources you should complain about Rogue; they do it better than Paladin and also happen to crush it directly.
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Not really.
That description fits far more a tempo deck.
They arenât the same.
A midrange deck is an deck that plans to outvalue your opponent with minions rather than AoE/removal/card generation (but can have a little of those).
Extreme dificult to remove minions and some sustain are what they do best.
Again, all of this is taking way too simplistic an approach to actually understanding how the game plays in 2020. Those are some very general points of theory that you shouldnât try to apply and put different decks into boxes.
Also pointing out again, the deck is present at higher ranks, but itâs not dominating. Youâre pointing out some of the stronger things that the class does, but every class has comparable things they do when piloted by skilled players. I hate to say it but this really is just a âgit gudâ moment.
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I know youâve left the chat effectively, but your last paragraph there shows you donât fully understand how this gameâs metaâs work.
Every meta has good and bad match ups. Rogues flooding the board is a bad match up for Paladin and Druid currently, but it is kept in check by Shaman and Warrior and so on. So you could say exactly what you stated about Paladin with regards to Rogues or any other class as well.
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My post has very little to do with matchups. I gave him an example of a class with actually unfair reload to compare to Pure Paladinâs good value mechanics. I pointed out it also happens to crush Paladin, which you seem to think means I donât understand meta deck interactions. A deck that is actually top tier instead of the one heâs mad about because itâs good against bad players like him.
And I hope you realize Paladinâs issue isnât that Rogue goes wide, itâs that they keep Paladin off the board extremely easily.
ââActualY coMpEtENt plAyErSââ god youre delusional
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