I can’t speak for Yugioh but I’m an avid MTG player. Land destruct / mana disruption is literally bread and butter for tons of decks across multiple decades. The problem is the expectation, as you put it here:
We’re not “used” to people stealing our mana. So it feels way worse than it actually is, in terms of concept.
Now, I’ll grant you, it’s a mean card and a problematic card. But, by turn 5 or 6, you should be able to have an answer for a mid-body minion in spite of being down a mana.
(Though you might not have an answer if it gets cheated out on turn 3 due to ramp)
I’m not saying that. I’m saying ramp was never Druid’s identity in the lore the game is based on, and it has a lot that could actually be pulled from it. And I say Warcraft, because it’s not just WoW. Druid was NEVER Green in MTG. They just wanted a correspondent to Green. The point is that ramp isn’t Druid’s only “identity.” They don’t need to ramp to be interesting.
The level of interaction in HS is more basic than any other card game, Chess, even Checkers. Your opponent just gets to do whatever they want, multiple moves on their turn, and you can’t have a response until it is your turn, hence no interaction.
You can literally interact with your opponent on their turn in those games. This is nonsense.
No, it’s not just stealing a mana, it is a neg two. In a game where you have to wait each turn, and can’t do anything to counter any of this. They go plus two mana. Leaving you at four to 6, so you have to have a broken curve, then they are playing 7 mana cards while you’re on 5, trying to catch up. And you can’t interact. You can’t stop this from happening, and you can’t stop their 7 mana plays from happening.
And that’s pretending they didn’t use Splish Splash. Really, you are on 4 mana to their 8. And they get two free 3/4s with taunt.
Lol, you can’t interact with opponents gameplay outside your turn other than secrets and a handful of other cards. You can’t do anything once your opponent plays Astalor, C’thun the Shattered or summons fourth Horseman from Uther of the Ebon Blade hero power.
In MtG you can counter almost any spell, you can destroy opponents lands, artifacts and minions at almost any moment.
Answer their mid body with an extent board state. Now they’re just going to Reno faster, while you can prepare.
Draw a Doomkin when AT full mana? That’s a dead draw in most cases that matter.
Doomkin is mean, but there’s a reason Warlocks rarely play it. They have no reason to invest so heavily into a mid-game body when they have no other ramp. Half the warlocks want to win before they can play it on curve in the first place.
The card itself probably won’t feel nearly as bad now that druids are playing it closer to expected curve.
Play my own Doomkin? Only 1 of 11 classes can do that.
You are completely setting the other person back, while you go ahead, while you were already ahead. The difference between a 1 cost minion and a 2 cost minion is nothing compared to a 4 cost minion and an 8 cost. It spirals out of control.
“I missed the part where that’s my problem” /spider-man-meme
And the spiral is significantly harder to pull off now due to the splish ban. Cheating mana early is way more beneficial than cheating it late. If druids play Doomkin on curve it’s practically meaningless.
If they banned Doomkin, I’d shrug and throw a different 6 cost dragon in there. But by banning Splish, I’m considering a different deck to climb with. That’s how radical the power difference is between those two cards.
Interaction is anytime that you directly engage with the opponent’s board state or win condition.
Anytime that you make trades with minions, target minions, use equipment to clear field, etc. then you are interacting with the opponent.
Hearthstone has one of the highest amounts of interaction, because the game was designed from the ground up to be more heavily based on minions than spells. Most spells that do target minions do specific damage, so in most cases you have to make minion trades AND use a spell to deal with the opponent’s board state.
In MTG, you regularly have metas where control decks can literally just negate any and everything that you play, because omnibus board wipes, targeted spells that kill minions regardless of health points, and counterspells are extremely ubiquitous in MTG. Hell, you even have aggro decks where you just go for face and there is nothing that you can do because MTG does not have taunts. In some metas, there are literally 1 or 2 cards in the entire format that can remove or counter specific strategies, such as sometimes standard only has 1 or 2 colorless cards that remove artifacts and enchantments.
In general, MTG has one of the worst interaction that I have ever experienced in a card game, hence why MTG has failed on multiple occasions to establish an ESPORTs scene (despite spending millions of dollars), and why the flagsip of MTG (MTG Arena) can only muster around 5K daily players on STEAM. Hell, MTG has such low/minimal interaction, that MTG’s content creator program failed despite pouring millions of dollars into the program. They literally were paying streamers full salaries and even then noone wanted to watch them stream because the game the game is devoid of meaningful interaction which makes spectating boring and extremely fatalistic.
Because of the consistency it had going into Doomkin. The whole thing was a mess. Ramp, 3/4, 3/4, something else, Doomkin. It was way too much. Doomkin was the main problem, but getting to it that fast was too much. Banning Doomkin would be more deserved, but hitting Splish killed the deck harder. Either way, one had to go.
And I say again, if they hit Doomkin, I’d give the biggest of /shrugs. I wouldn’t even have come to the boards. I’d be like “oh, they banned it? Okay, here’s a 6 cost dragon.”
They banned the enabler to the ramping engine. THAT’s why I’m here going “oh wow, they finally did something that actually matters.”
Also, by “ramp” we’re obviously not counting the Coin. Or “refresh” mana. Right? Don’t make the mistake of taking things too literally.
The enabler got banned and that REALLY hurts the deck. The Doomkin, I would be okay with them banning as well. I honestly don’t like the card.
I just don’t think it was “ZOMG” levels awful. It did a thing but it wasn’t the crux of the deck.
You don’t consider Doomkin ramp? Seriously? You go plus 2 mana compared to your opponent. It doesn’t ramp you on your turn, but it does the next turn, and it negs your opponent right away. You serious?
They could ban doomkin and I’d celebrate. I say for the THIRD time, three times in a row:
I WANT THEM TO BAN DOOMKIN I WANT THEM TO BAN DOOMKIN
I WANT THEM TO BAN DOOMKIN
I WANT THEM TO BAN DOOMKIN (bonus 4th time!)
Doomkin means very little to the deck. Have you ever played the deck? It means basically nothing.
If I have 6 mana, I want to cast that spell that grants me 3 empty crystals, relying on extent board state to survive until I clear the board next turn with 10-costs. Or, I want to cast that spell (which I hopefully “chose both” via forge or whatever) to summon five 4/6 treants with taunt, while giving my extent minions 2/2 and taunt. Or, I want to summon that dragon that deals 6 damage and has lifesteal with quickdraw. Or, I want to do basically anything else.
Doomkin is entirely incidental to the deck.
Contrast that to the 2-cost draggo that gave you mana, synergized with that card that gives you a coin, synergized with the 1-cost draggo that probably boosted itself and this one, synergized with the 3-cost that probably gives you a copy to boost again next turn, synergized even as a “dead card” on turn 10+ because it’s a dragon in hand, etc. etc. etc.
Ok, I will refrain from meming hard on you but you are wrong.
Yes, everything you do interacts with opponents win condition. Again, you cannot interact with opponent’s gameplay outside of your turn. Please, read before you respond with irrelevant stuff.
MTG was a sport when no one even dreamt of WoW let alone HS. First MTG World Championship were held the same year Warcraft was released that is in 1994. The game had a competitive scene for What, 30 years now?
No, that is not why MtG did not became a major ESPORTS. Have you seen Arena gameplay? If you are not already clued in on what MtG is about you will have no clue and it looks boring as %^$( that is very. And even a person that knows Magic rules will tell you that Arena is not the most exciting thing to look at. What are the most successful Esports? DotA, LoL, Counterstrike… all dynamic and easy to follow games. Watching MtG: A game is like watching paint dry against those.
Your initial point was that you’d just replace Doomkin, because whatever. But I’m saying it’s ramp. And you said ramp is broken. And then you’re saying, “What is Ramp?”
Seriously? I don’t understand. I’m being confrontation because you’re not making sense. Is Doomkin a problem or not? Is it ramp or not? Is ramp a problem or not? Be consistent.
No, I haven’t played the deck, but I’ve played against it, and I can tell you, Doomkin was the problem. It’s plus 2 mana in a class that ramps. Druid always had ramp. Ramp might be bad, but Doomkin IS STILL RAMP.
Doomkin is a 6-mana ramp card with 3/4 stats. That is insignificant if played on curve or even 1 turn earlier. However, Having Doomkin played 2 turns earlier is catastrophic.
Splish-Splash is the more problematic card because its a 2-mana 2/1 body that ramps early. Coin into Splish-splash can happen on turn 1, which is one of the strongest starts in the game atm.
Cool. Doomkin is still ramp, and we agree ramp is bad for a game with poor interaction.
I’m actually not tilted with you at all. You’re just not making sense to me. I’m going to say the same thing over and over:
Doomkin is ramp, and it’s insanely toxic. Even if you got it on turn 6, I’d hate it. It just would be…like, “Okay, that’s their big swing card right now, until they put a boss down.”