“Every time” huh? Sure
How exactly would this happen? I mean… My experience only comes from playing Magic with friends (no tournaments or anything fancy), but if I slipped a card to the top of my deck back in the day, I THINK my buddies would have been a little annoyed. LOL
Not sure if it answers the question you were asking the OP, but wouldn’t it just be a law of common sense? I don’t see how (assuming you shuffle by hand) that a given card could end up right back at the top of your deck.
Pretty common knowledge that Blizzard bans for discussing things like how to break game mechanics (especially if you correctly describe it)… At least they do with WoW. I mean, you start talking exploits, and you can expect a forum vacation.
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“Computers don’t create random” is true but irrelevant in this context. It would be like me complaining that I got no rare cards in my last pack, and explaining that that’s because a “card” is made of paper and all I got was pictures on a computer screen…
True, the computers are almost certainly not using a truly random process (e.g. they aren’t watching an atom to see whether it decays and using that as the random seed). But it’s going to be completely unpredictable by a human, and it’s going to have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that this one time someone shuffled a bomb into your deck and you drew it next turn.
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Really now? 'cos this sounds very much like 100% of the time:
So, if its happening “every time” it is, by default, happening 100% of the time. My linked replays prove that to be a false claim.
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Let’s start small and work our way back up then.
If I have a single card left in my deck and you shuffle a bomb in, should I have a 50/50 chance of drawing it next turn?
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See, you can argue that the same way; common sense.
Ofc if you only have 2 cards left one of them has to be on top, but if you have a full deck of 30 cards and you try to slide that card onto the top of your opponents deck irl, he’s liable to punch you in the mouth I think. lol
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But that shuffled card should, on average, be the top card just as often as any of the other cards. Thats just how probability & averages work.
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But if the shuffling is actually random, then yes, there’s a non-zero chance of them getting it on top.
For example, if the method of sticking a bomb into a deck is:
- You play a bomb-shuffling card
- I stick that card in the center of my deck and do a complete shuffle
then the only way to guarantee that it never winds up on top is if I manipulate my own shuffle. That would be an actual incident of rigging, not the shuffle that gives the card a chance to wind up on top.
Suddenly if the bomb receiver is responsible for the shuffle, should they punch the other guy if they shuffle it to the top of their own deck, since it literally cannot be the other guy’s fault? If not, should the individual doing the shuffling matter, since the goal is to randomize the deck, not force a specific result? If so, it sounds like the only occurance of “rigging” is going on with in-person shuffling, not in the digital game.
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You and your buddy are sitting there, he’s got 1 card in his deck, you’re giving him a bomb card, how do you decide on it’s position? Flip a coin maybe? Who flips the coin, and in what fashion?
That’s something you see and do yourself. There’s no law of averages/probability there.
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Looks like he was responding to your ‘full deck of 30’ comment, which he was right about.
If you’re doing a full shuffle of your deck, there’s nothing about that card that should give it a different probability of finishing the shuffle on top than any other card in your deck.
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Yes, Wardrum is right, I was addressing your 30 card scenario. Simple fact is if you are shuffling fairly each and every card is just as likely to land on top after said shuffle. If that never happens, then youre not shuffling fairly.
Fun fact: computers actually shuffle more fairly/randomly than humans do. Our shuffling techniques are more biased than prng simulators are.
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If the guy receiving the bomb is doing the shuffling after you give him the card, do you REALLY think it’s going to end up on top? There is a very simple reason it won’t-- and it has nothing to do with intentional cheating-- It’s the fact that the player in question likely knows their own deck, and if they want to win, they are unlikely to sabotage themselves.
See, you guys (some more than others) are talking down to the OP with all these rules and laws, but what you don’t get is that the game becomes a lot simpler when it becomes tangible.
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I’m not talking down to the OP. Go back and look at what I’ve said and what he and FemaleBrain said and see who started chucking insults.
This totally contradicts itself, though. “Knowing your deck” should have absolutely zero impact on how you shuffle it if you’re doing it fairly. Shuffling in such a manner as to avoid putting a particular card on top is cheating, because you’re manipulating your own results.
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I believe it has just as much of a chance as how ever many other cards are in the deck. Thats what random is. If it never hit top, after millions of shuffles, then i would be questioning the shuffling technique as thats a statistical anomaly.
E: Related article on ipods “shuffle” feature not being random:
Very relevant to this discussion!
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You don’t have to “avoid it” from happening. Did you two decide on a set shuffle method before the game started? If not, he can shuffle however he wants-- And if you two did agree on, let’s say a dovetail shuffle, he’s going to know the position of where that card was in his hand/deck when he initially placed it, which is going to give him a fair idea of where it’s going to end up.
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Boy do I hear you brother. I have so much proof that vaccines cause autism and the Earth is flat but no on will listen!
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Just going to point out something on this argument/discussion you guys are having.
I can only speak for Magic but thsi is why you must give your opponent the option to cut your deck after shuffling as it does screw up the ability to weight the deck’s draw to a degree. Even if I shuffle truely I can weight the odds some because humans suck at shuffling pure RNG
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Okay, so let’s remove the personally-shuffled element from the situation (because this is a digital game, after all) and say that each player brings a card shuffling machine with them.
Now what?
We keep coming back to “if it was a person shuffling” as if that somehow proves the game is rigged, when in fact all this discussion has done is prove more and more that a person shuffling a deck is far more biased than an actual fair, computer-driven shuffle.
Also as Lykotic said above, if you shuffle the bomb I just gave you into your deck, then I cut your deck and that winds up sticking the bomb on top… Do I still get punched? If so, why?
(No, I don’t believe you are necessarily a violent person, just sticking with the example/scenario we’ve been working with)
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Agreed, it makes sense to offer a cut in a physical card game not only for the randomness, but also because I know I can shuffle a card to the top or bottom of a deck quite easily with physical cards (aka cheating).
But, there is no need for a digital game to offer it. Trust me, you dont wanna face my Rogue decks and have a “do you want to cut” popup appearing every 3 seconds!
No. The thing about HS is that NONE of it is tangible. Everything that happens, happens behind the scenes, which leaves a lot of room for speculation as to how mechanics function at times… You can talk about laws of probability and pseudo-rng, but those aren’t issues that come up in irl card games.
Also, I don’t think I know anyone with their own card shuffling machine. lol
Because really, that’s the difference. You can see what the other person is/would be doing… Nothing is hidden from the players, as it is in HS. I think it’s really easy to see where the OP is coming from when he expresses frustration.
Assuming both players are playing “honestly,” then it was a joint effort.
I’ve seen Kingsbane rogues reach lethal by turn 3… I don’t think you could do worse if you tried. lol
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