This is Iksars stated premise and his own personal feeling. He finds being run out of resources so incredibly frustrating he deleted that type of control from the game. Since, shocker, he assumes his experience is fully generalizable.
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It was my first time listening to the podcast and while I love Ridiculous Hat, the Zacho guy came off as a really condescending narcissist, especially after he tried to argue he loves Priest… because he liked decks from Priest that were based around burst damage combos using cards like Mind Blast.
I mean… lets be fair. When i talk of control styles i enjoy, i think probably of a deck that i built to enjoy that trades, instead of armor up… aoe,… armor up… armor up… fatigue die.
Those decks are bad, and i don’t think there’s ever been a standard control fatigue or fatigue deck i was ever interested in.
I liked the wild razakus tempo oriented combos i made much better than draw wild razas. Since i found my variant at least, had less polarizing matchups and was able to go top legend at least for me with a deck only i was playing and kill mirrors. I also spent like 30 iterations improving the deck from 45% initial winrates to like 65% to top legend in the end. But it’s a dead 10-30% wr deck, just same cards, but the current power level of warlock cards left it in the dust and it has no way to deal 20 damage before turn 4 before getting comboed. When i was on my mage deck, i supposed i’d try burning a lock. But the 6 healing and just the constant threats that outpace even burn mage are a bit silly.
Warlock in wild just isn’t healthy imo in it’s current 70-83% wr design. And also to be fair. Maybe my decks may not be as brute force strong as others. When i play decks on the anywhere to Diamond 5 grind, i often could play 57% any wr hsreplay decks to a 65-78% personal piloted wr to the diamond 5. then see it level off to like 58-65% on legend grind depending on decks. I might be possibly piloting decks above winrate a slight bit. So maybe the decks are weaker but legend is unironically a "bleh, i just don’t feel like grinding 10-20 hours to do it again for a single pack for the 4-6th time… i already got my card back, i got my packs. I get better investment elsewhere. I’ve already done both modes legend at once past 2k dust standard f2p 57% wr deck piloted to 75% to diamond 5, 60% to legend.
And when i played wild, i a 62% wr mage piloted to 78%, homebrew 10k+ raza deck with like 5-10k more dust spent on iteration. For how i afford it, i barely do, i literally save all my dust earnings to play it, because it’s actually my deck variant of a unique control midrange with varying playstyles i homebrew fun and have went legend and crushed meta and darkglare decks with to 50-200 wild legend points. Maybe i’m not a tournament guy, but i can definitely pilot a deck to legend and play with it, and fought the #2 and #3 people in wild a couple times. But wild was smaller so it turned out the bracket was so small they had the dust to play 3 decks and could literally counter game to game, so i laughed and just settled for 50 as i just really enjoyed this one.
Anyways it’s dead now. I can still win i just… don’t… have fun playing… idk. I play for fun, and dust to make the deck honestly. I don’t know if anyone can relate… But… Has anyone just had a deck they really loved, that didn’t seem to exist? and you were wrecking not because you actually were putting garbage in a deck… but improving it with stronger cards, stronger clears, missed inspire energies, new homebrew and flexed combos, counting lethals?
And i know it small, but singletons decks… it’s small but only having one copy of each card, makes every turn potentially feel important. You can only ever answer one card once. while if i have two, idgaf, i’ll likely never even need to draw the 2nd. They can still have fun, but i mean. Just a lot of it, if anyone can figure it out, im kinda a complexity guy. I don’t want complexity for the sake of complexity, and i think standard’s control and fatigue decks always sounded bad… But a tempo raza priest like idea… a control deck that can fight for board, but isn’t the fastest and still wants to play with you, that can provide value that isn’t infinite healing. seems kinda the most fun i’ve ever had with the archetype and the wild variants could actually be a blast, standards were… always trash though. I want wild control to exist that can draw and play games, tempo and fight for board. Standard control being dead idk, but i want wild control or slower combo control alive. Not too sure about shard.
my control games “”""“control”"""" never reached 45 min not even 5 years ago idk where ppl get those…unless ppl watching too much legend streamers wich is not a realy good place to compere to the rest of us…
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Fair enough. I played a few Priest mirrors (yeah, they were good and I wanted to climb, I make no apologies!) And there were a few value vomit slugfests decided by rng. Wasn’t a fan
Action packed u say how can u have any meaningful action before turn 7-8?
Maybe u want to play idk pubg mobile for action…
Aside from personal preferences on playstyle…
I’m genuinely surprised no one has mentioned all the people who spent a good chunk of money on the expac and half of the cards are unplayable upon arrival.
They definitely got ripped off as far as getting their money’s worth.
Let’s look at HSReplay.
Quest Warlock - avg time for the best winning deck - 7.3 minutes
Quest Mage - avg time for the best winning deck - 8.4 minutes
Now let’s look at Face Hunter
Face Hunter - avg time for the best winning deck - 5.9 minutes
Aggro Elemental Shaman - avg time for the best winning deck - 6.6 minutes
Elemental Shaman - avg time for the best winning deck - 6.7 minutes
Handbuff Paladin - avg time for the best winning deck - 6.7 minutes
So, provably, you’re wrong. The speed of the meta is not because Quest Mage and Quest Warlock. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It’s the top 4 decks that closeout the game way faster.
I think I’ve proven my point that the games are faster and that if people really hated fast games, they would be complaining about hunter, shaman and paladin. Instead, they are complaining mostly about mage and warlock.
So people seem fine with the fast games. That’s the design Hearthstone is headed. What people are not fine with are decks like Quest Mage and Quest Warlock where they feel helpless.
People will sacrifice getting smashed in the face faster and move onto the next game rather than play against any control decks and have control completely wiped from the meta.
In fact, the responses on this very post prove that point. People are happy that this is the case. And much like the OP link has stated, turn 9 may as well not even exist right now.
The meta might be diverse CLASS WISE, but it’s not diverse deck type wise.
And to add on further, if you look at Quest Mage, it’s actually one of the SLOWEST decks in the meta. Even CLOWN DRUID is faster. So you’re waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base stating Quest Mage is what makes the meta fast.
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I was in since GvG but quit 2 days into this expansion. A truly wonderful decision! Still check the forums from time to time. But don’t much miss the game.
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While i appreciate trying to be postive i feel you are in the minority the meta is not balanced even ppl like Brian Kibler who are positive have spoken up the meta is not healty its not balanced.
Control and midrange needs to exist and combo otk is way to fast.
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I certainly do think that more than a few things need to be changed, however, it’s good in that it forces us to actually pay more attention. As much as there has been a lot of uproar, I genuinely have been really enjoying this expansion, and I look forward to the nerfs that are coming as well.
I think there are good points i like the tradeable mechanic, but id like for midrange and control to be viable too.
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PC Gamer
Literally who?
It’s a quite reliable, informative and knowledgeable website/magazine that has been around for quite a few years. Anyone who has ever played a PC game knows who PC Gamer is. I personally have had a subscription to them since they first came out in 1994.
Give it a look. Worth the time.
the discussion isn’t about how they control the meta anymore, this is about how they literally make you want to gouge your own eyes out because it’s so boring to watch them do their repetitive BS.
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I think you misunderstood my point. I didnt say Mage and Warlock were the fastest. I said by locking and control strategies and providing easy targets for aggro, they’re are the main catalysts for the speed of the meta. I really dont think so many people would pick pick if it wasn’t so objectively the correct choice, and that’s largely due the popularity of these quest decks.
Long story short, Quest decks are the cause, aggro is the effect.
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i’ve also noticed with the powerful burst of battlegrounds master and new cards, it doesn’t seem like even midrange deck need cards like the priest quest anymore sadly. Honestly, i was going through trying to make it work, and 66% of the time i managed to win in from the deck, it was either tempo kills from a battlegrounds master leading to lethal, or midrange plays, or just like outlasting a one trick pony aggro deck, or having the aggro just overwhelm and make the quest too dangerous to complete even with cards in hands.
Playing a 8 cost card that’s the wrong 8 cost card on 2 hp isn’t always the best play over a heal combo like the +1 spellpower 2 mana 1/1 draw thalnos + 2 mana lifesteal 1 dmg aoe spirit lash against a pirate war for instance.
It sounds absurd, but even in quest priest in wild, where i could get the deck to work with all the cards… i just find that if i want to make a deck to even work… i have to dedicate like a entire 2/3rds of my deck to just 2-4 cost cards… like 7x 2 cost, 5x 3 cost, 4x 4 cost, and then 2-4x copies of every other mana cost 5, 6 and 1-2x copies of 7-8 cost cards to even have a reasonable chance, and even then with a deck curved like that, it’s pretty consistent to be missing a single 3 mana card, or a 7 when you need it or 2 drop vice aversa.
The priest quest suffers too much from lack of draw in priest and on curve cards not always being right to play. Even with wild with the whole set… i’m not finding most success trying to rely on it, but playing a midrange that can discover 2 cards or renos with it. Even when i could fulfill the conditions… like i’m on the 7/8 stage with a 7/8 in hand, i find myself having to soul mirror empty boards or things it doesn’t clear or my own minions. If i put minions in, i find them too bad when i need clear.
Or needing to play off the curve of the quest to just survive, but then increasing my winrate ignoring the quest and just killing people with battlemaster in a raza deck… through… tempo… instead of quest…
Honestly, i like reno, but honestly it seems like having two battlemasters would be better than having reno in this archetype. raza is often too slow, anduin often aoes your own minions and is a good card but doesn’t synergize with on curve 7s or aoeing twice in the row. I honestly wonder if having two razas and more 2 mana draw a cards would be better.
Battlemaster honestly feels a bit overtuned, and i can only imagine how much better it’d be in a true aggro or midrange deck or handbuff. Honestly, a lot of cards look like they were printed overtuned or need a bit of balance, though it’s neat, being able to double so many things seems a bit much. Even by wild standards a lot of this set seems grossly overtuned.
To me this feels like a holiday trip. Or a big tavern brawl. As long as it’s not there forever, it’s fine for me.
Fatigue type decks are non existent in other card games because you lose automatically if you can’t draw a card. It’s not really a thing in most other CCGs.
I remember playing Runeterra last year, and the Control decks over there kill people, and relatively fast (LOR is faster because players share ramping and drawing every round).
Why does everyone here read “I want games to maybe last sometimes longer then turn 8” and automatically think “I only want SoU Turn 56+ Control Grinder Warrior to be the only meta deck” or some crap.
Like I’m sure there’s some middle ground to be reached between “Every tier 1-2 deck wants to rip your head on by turn 6” vs. “Fatigue is the only way to win.”
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