The most common argument that I see for people to play aggressive is that their opponent has more late game threats. So they have to win fast or lose the game. Even when people complain about Control Warrior, the usual respond is “why don’t you play aggro decks like Tempo Rogue or Druid?”.
Does that make aggro archetype the counter for control? It doesn’t sound right to me because I have always thought control archetype is designed to feed on aggro.
So which one has advantage in the Control vs Aggro matchup?
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I had this exact argument with Bowser an Lykotic. Gonna stick with my guns that aggro ALWAYS has the advantage because of the mana system.
[Removed by Forum Moderator for being inappropriate.] Game already favors who goes first, who gets the first 1 drop, who dictates the trades etc. Decks are only 30 cards, the game forces 10 turns before you can play the highest cards (Druid has been the exception to this).
Every single time you queue a game, just remember aggro has the advantage. With whoever going first aswell. Because of the mana system. Because control is forced to wait an wait an wait to play its higher cost cards to win.
Heres what a true hard counter was as control not THAT long ago. An that was Druid with the broken card Spreading Plague. They could ramp to the mana they needed an had the ultimate f bomb to aggresive decks. An that card got nerfed WITH the classes iditenty to ramp lol.
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In general aggro counters midrange and combo, midrange beats control and can give combo fits, and control beats aggro, and combo beats control. However for control to counter aggro it needs to hit a threshold of removal answers. You can see this in the old no fun control warlock vs any aggro. It destroyed them because it has so many answers to small minions and drew extra cards. Right now other than warrior with 2 brawl, 2 warpath, 2 dyno whatever it is, theres is no hero that can match this. The best counter to control is actually combo and then midrange.
Midrange is suited to beat control because it just puts up threat after threat through the curve.
Aggro is also suited to beat everything if opponent draws poorly because as aggro it hardly ever draws poorly.
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I think what you are confusing here is what the counter is and what the one out for aggro is to actually in the matchup.
Yes as the aggro deck vs control you have to play aggressive and try to kill them before they outvalue you, because it is literally your only small shot at winning the game.
Control is the counter to aggro, they favor big boardclears over killing their opponent because they know that in the lategame nothing coming out of the agro deck is going to threaten them.
Of course control can get screwed over by the mulligan, if they could not aggro decks wouls literally not stand a winning chance ever.
Imo Aggro is designed to beat everything with the right draw, you play against yourself to a large degree.
Control is designed to play against aggro. It is reactionary where aggro is not.
Aggro draws threats, control draws answers.
To some degree I don’t think one necessarily counters the other. It’s whoever draws and plays better. Both have the tools to beat each other.
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i always disagreed about archetypes automaticaly countering other archetypes. it’s more about specific decks imo.
I have played many control and aggro decks, and I know there are matchups that you feel favored as the aggro player vs control, as the control player vs combo and vice versa.
There have also been match ups where the combo player is favored against aggro, I just don’t play combo so that’s why i didnt mention it.
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it all depends on the board clear at the time. Remember when defile was a thing? control warlock beat almost every aggro deck because of defile. Likewise if priest had psychic scream it would beat all of these aggro decks which focus on buffing their units. As of right now there isn’t a whole lot of good board clear right now so other than control warrior their arent many viable control decks.
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I have to respectfully disagree here.
It begins in the deck building process.
Aggro decks are built to finish the game as fast and effectively as possible, correct?
Control decks are built to control the game, surivive until the late game so they can play out their late game plan to finish the game.
Aggro decks don’t run AOE heals etc because it makes their deck inconsistent with their game plan of finishing the game as fast and effectively as possible
Control decks are built with AOE, tech cards, heal etc to survive Aggro decks specifically. That’s why players put flamestrike, mass hysteria etc into their decks.
Not to counter other control decks, that’s what their late game finisher is for. Most AOE is useless against control decks.
Majority of control decks are built to survive Aggro then to finish against a mirror control match
Control to me is the counter to Aggro decks not the other way round.
Aggro decks are there because the game has to have Aggro decks, they don’t really counter anything , it’s just a play style that relies on fast killing cards and hoping your opponent doesn’t run a bunch of AOE and heals
Funny to see all these differing opinions.
I’m going to throw out the lazy answer and say “it depends.”
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Control is supposed to counter aggro, the fact that we are even having this argument means there is a catastrophic failure in design right now.
It’s a simple rock paper scissors relationship that usually forms the foundation of the meta. Control runs aggro out of threats, Midrange has way too many threats to handle, Aggro outpaces and punishes midrange greed.
In a balanced meta, each archetype is strong enough to keep another one in check. Normally, if aggro is really popular we would see a rise in control decks. The problem is that control decks have a hard time beating aggro decks right now.
I believe this is because aggro was given tools to counter control, something that should never happen. Let’s take murloc shaman for example. Underbelly Angler is the main problem as it allows free hand refill, which used to be one of murloc’s only weakness. There is also toxfin which allows you to easily kill big taunts that are supposed to counter the deck.
They took Divine Favor out of the game because it allows aggro to counter control, a matchup it isn’t supposed to win by design. Then they go and give every aggro deck in the game a way to counter control…
I have a shred of hope, since the games I play seem to be pretty random matchups. If aggro wins out though, this game could be unplayable until the next change
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Both. Aggro with the right draw can decimate a Control deck before it can get reliable removal.
Control with the right draw can dominate an Aggro deck with constant clears and sustain.
Though Control is more of a counter to Aggro because that’s what its built upon and it’s meant to deal with that exact thing. Aggro is meant to shut down combo decks quick.
…and thus, a rock, paper, scissors meta.
Aggro as scissors, paper as combo, and rock as control.
Lazy answer but also the most logical/correct answer i can think off
Maybe hearthstone will evolve in a new meta. Perhaps where aggro will be on par if not better than control (depends on the next exp. They might print op control tools). The game doesnt have to follow old traditions, we should be open to changes. Is what makes it more interesting.
It’s not about aggro being on par with control, it is about aggro countering control. Aggro can and has been better than control many times because of how easily it can destroy almost any other kind of deck. Control is usually only good against aggro and tempo, early game decks that run out of steam.
I’m not a huge fan of the rock paper scissors polarization myself. I mainly just want a way to deal with aggro that doesn’t involve playing an aggro or tempo deck.
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At the moment it’s a very value oriented meta.
I can’t remember when a 3 mana 1/5 was a great turn 3 play. Those lackeys are making a big impact on what the meta is doing.
Also tempo is king right now. More so than I can remember in the last 3-4 months.
With so few early game removal options/taunts or heal.
Which is why Rogue is so powerful right now.
It IS the tempo class with cards like backstab Si Prep Sap Raiding Party Vendetta, Lackeys etc
No many classes can remove minions while developing their own in the early game as successfully as Rogue.
This is why Rogue is running the show IMO more than anything.
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Control decks have differing kinds of game plans, sometimes bordering on mid-range. Is the deck teched / built to sustain against other control decks? Or just to beat aggressive decks?
This is perhaps best represented in the upcoming HCT lineups, where some control decks have Elysiana, others don’t.
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Eternium Rover looks like an aggro minion (Dire mole, Crystallizer) yet it does a very good job in control decks. Challenges the early board without using removal. Sometimes these labels “aggro, control etc” are kinda vague. If at some point aggro has tools to counter control removals (as ironic as it sounds) with underbelly murloc and token druid having crazy refill you will have to drop the slower control decks and switch to a faster deck simply because thats just how the meta is. Or play the strongest control deck which is warrior
That failure is combo has been nuked from the game. If there is no otk deck, control takes over. Then, while everything is trying to deal with control, which no longer has a real counter, aggro swoops in and destroys everything but control. If you want a healthy game, you have stuff like mechathun and shudderwock. If you want 40 minute control warrior games or 5 minute tempo rogue games and nothing in between, you remove otk. Congratulations, community. You played yourselves.
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I understand the context and the need for different archetype, but not in the form of mechathun and shudderwock. ![:scream:](https://dacy5cilkxabf.cloudfront.net/en/hearthstone/images/emoji/twitter/scream.png?v=6" ":scream:")
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People appear to be operating under different understandings of what agro and control are. When Bowser and Lykotic refer to control, they are referencing a deck that is heavy on removal.
For a very simple understanding of this, look at mage. Defensive mage decks consistently dumpster agro, as they have lots of efficient removal that allows them to take out large boards the turn before they become a problem and single threats for cheap.
For the opposite side of the coin, look at heavy druid decks. They have always struggled against board based aggression because they are really good at getting huge minions out fast. It doesn’t matter though, because the aggressive deck already has lots of smaller minions out and you can only trade with one of them per turn and, as the druid, you can’t race them because they have a head start.
Control beats agro.
Agro beats greed.
Control has a lot of room to play greedy these days.
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