I have noticed one common thing that is turning this game into “he drew the good card, i lose”
The mana cheating. Turn 4 and 5 bears or turn 4 hydraladon. Or turn 4 or 5 drakefires or heck even clownfish.
Typical game here and tbis happens a lot. Coin into the dredge weapon, turn 3 saber and second use of weapon, turn 4 mountain bears.
Or discount boat or gone Fishin with tradeable weapon turn one. Turn two prep boat coin gone fishin and turn two fourb3/3’s if ya go second.
I could give more examples, the point being is that these big swing turns happen way to easily now which lead to non games
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Yep mana cheat and powercreep hurt the fun factor and each expansion is more and more ridiculous
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Most stop playing in less than a month If that happens.
It’s boring.
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That’s a big flaw of card games in general and why they need to at least be complicated so then there is at least some element of player agency, when the game is as simple as hearthstone and you have two people piloting very simple decks then it basically does come down to sequencing, a little bit experience to make sure you follow the standard lines but there aren’t many different sequences you can have with 4 turn games. Though it wouldn’t matter if it was RNG on a mana cheating card or RNG on some other power multiplier, perhaps some of the cards in themselves are overtuned and not the mechanic itself being overbaked because the older ramp druids were plenty fine and people just considered it as part of a druid identity.
Non-games caused by high rolls are equally damaging to people’s desire to play.
Hearthstone isn’t only fun when you randomly demolish your opponent because your cards work too well together in the early/mid game.
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There isn’t really anything inherently wrong with mana cheat. When the answers don’t keep up with it then there starts to be a problem and it is real easy for the answers to fall behind when you’re playing at sorcery speed.
Minami isn’t wrong though - people enjoy cheating on mana. They just don’t enjoy having it done against them.
We’re you there for Curvestone back in the Secret Paladin era?
It was miserable, and maybe the firsts great complaining in the game.
We’re you here for undertaker hunter? Were you there for overload shaman, back when a 4 mana 7/7 was ridiculous? Were you there for Dr 7?
All this QQing this forum does, it comes in waves. People whine when the game is too linear and tempo based.
People whine when there’s RNG, no matter how little or small. People whine when aggro is powerful, and when control is powerful too.
You take out the “mana cheating”? The game reverts to “who curved better” and the complaints remains.
The truth is, nobody dislikes mana-cheating. No one counting how much mana is cheated at a turn, especially because them they would have to hate every deck. Every deck has undercoated cards that ARE mana cheating.
People dislike losing, and whatever strategy beats them is a problem. It does not matter if it’s straight tempo, control, aggro or combo, I’d they feel the other strategy is more powerful than theirs, they get pissy.
Sure but your take is a little too irrational on it.
Let’s talk about the Double wildpawn gnoll turn 2 for example.
If that is too much the card can reset the discount when played.
What i seeing is people demolishing the game. Not trying to make it better.
Really, Mana cheat just shouldn’t be enabling plays far ahead of reasonable answers to them.
Almost no one has turn 2 5 damage removal spells, so double gnolls shouldn’t really be able to hit the board on turn 2 even on a high roll.
3 damage AoEs are usually turn 4-5 ish? So both halves of sunken vessel shouldn’t be happening on turn 2-3.
Mana cheat isn’t inherently a problem, but it should have limits on how lucky someone can get with it.
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I agree that things could be toned down in the highroll department. We have a few Barnes types plays going on right now.
The developers should tone down these effects in the future.
I think there’s a lot of Timmys out there that just want to pull off the ridiculous highrolls. That’s why I don’t find playing anything remotely slow below Diamond 5 fun. You just sit like a sack of potatoes and feel totally helpless while your opponent completely ignores you into some highroll.
I don’t know why it’s so different between D6-10 and D1-5, but once I cross the gap all the super greedy decks go away and people play harder for the early board.
The high rolls really just feel worse because of the game length and the low complexity, like if a game goes til turn 4 that sometimes mean one player had 33% extra turns throughout that match, the other player had one less turn to respond to and it also means that the player who finished on 4 probably dished out 20 damage in that turn, so often a game that ends 20 health - 0 could have basically felt even if evenly distributed turns but also card games that go for 10-15 turns just don’t have that problem and when you add in complexity and strategic thinking then there is always some sort of come back mechanism to that play.
Though this is a wild perspective where most games are ended before 6mins. I actually cannot pinpoint a standard players issues with a high roll, other than there is little comeback or outplay happening (maybe).
I think in general there is more tolerance for super over the top high roll style wins in wild.
It’s kind of the entire point of the format for it to be a very high power set of cards due to the unforseen synergies of many years of card releases.
In standard the expectation has always been more for games to be a less high power environment due to a smaller pool of cards to choose from. Within the last year or two, the power level of cards has spiked so much, and the consistency along with it, that it doesn’t feel much different than what you would run into in wild.
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First we should put it in here that we already experienced really linear gameplay during UIS.
So unless you like that a non highroll game is undesirable because it is exactly that. End.
After that we can go ahead and discuss what is acceptable or not and why.
I find it problematic when people literally forget past just for the sake of their argument and the OP really feels like doing that.
Maybe not on purpose so this is why i taking the time to remember people.
No, UiS was an abomination of guaranteed high rolls every game because of hideously broken questline design.
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This is your interpretation. Wrong in my opnion.
That because technically if it’s guaranteed than it isn’t even a roll. So it can’t be high or low.
And that theme really can’t even be discussed without that being clear.
It’s gets just too vague.
It gets so vague that people would appear here with lists of 30/50 cards to nerf using that argument.
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Either way you interpret it, United in Stormwind is absolutely not a good goal for a game state. They literally started you with your uninterruptible win con in hand for every quest deck.
Forged in the Barrens was the last set with normal-ish power levels.
I think a big reason mana cheat is an issue is how they handle mana cheat. They have been using it to make decent/good cards better. That by itself can ruin game balance for people who like diversity. What they need to do is re-gear all the mana cheat to making bad cards decent. Make a mana cheat that, for example, only works on non typed minions, or only on neutral minions or maybe only non typed spells. A great example of mana cheat that is “balanced” is shivering sorceress. It may be super power creep, but it is a reasonable minion with a reasonable ability that doesn’t win games by itself. That should be the model for mana cheat ceiling. Any more than that and it becomes far too meta warping.
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Okay but if we enter on minions like wildpawn gnoll we find that it isn’t too diferent from your description.
On classic we already have or yetis as 4 mana 4/5.
Then we have rush that is around 1 mana of a effect. Probably less.
And we it’s discount effect that really should really be just 1 extra mana.
After that we have the “class discount” that is basically a design choice to push classes to play their own cards instead of neutrals.
Reducing around 1 mana from the cost.
So gnolls are basically in the "not so much mana cheat territory:
Why?
We use math.
4+1+1-1 = 5.
Double gnolls can be considered a issue but a gnoll on turn 2 alone really isn’t if you take into account it’s a buildaround.
What Hearthstone needs is a stat squish like they do in WoW for every expansion. How they can make that transition happen other than just having a year of garbage expansions and wait until the last of the power creep rotates out and we get a fresh new starting point, I have no idea. It’s almost guaranteed that in that year of garbage they will lose most of the player base before the power reset happens.
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