I think I'm done with Battlegrounds until

…until Poisonous Murlocs are removed, or until better counters are introduced. I’ve reached my breaking point.

The rant:
Let’s start with the basics: There is nothing enjoyable going up against someone playing Poisonous Murlocs. Nothing. And that, in and of itself, is an issue.

The whole concept of the Battlegrounds is to build up a strong army by leveraging minion type symbiosis, applying buffs, smart gold spending, timely tavern upgrades, and a good use of your hero power. Being the best strategist you can be with what you have to work with.

It’s a fun challenge, and often this is easier said than done. Some games, the cards offered just don’t work out, and that’s fine. But some other games, they do, and you end up building a strong board and you boost your minions properly, and you start getting the feeling that hey, maybe you can win it all.

…And then someone comes along with Poisonous Murlocs that nullifies everything you’ve built for the past 7-8 rounds. It’s a cheap strategy that requires minimal build-up, a few well-placed Taunts, and a bit of luck. That’s it. There’s nothing strategic about this.

When you’re halfway through the game and you already know who’s most likely to win, there’s something wrong. I’ve stopped counting how many times I’ve watched the first round of an opponent’s SI:Sefin, knowing that there’s nothing I can do to prevent what’s to come. It’ll be hidden behind a few basic diversions that only serve to get the death counter up and activate SI:Sefin’s very easy Avenge, granting another Murloc Poisonous, or casting it on himself in the very least. And then it goes downhill from there.

I’m tired of that feeling of being powerless because there’s no way to force my minions to prioritize killing SI:Sefin. I’m tired of knowing that regardless of the other opponents I’ll face after, I’ll probably end up losing to that person eventually.

It takes the whole game to build an army and this is a mechanic that you can’t adapt to in a round or two. If you’re not playing Mechs with Divine Shields to soak at least one attack and ideally get more Shields, or powerful Dragons with Divine Shields from Nadina the Red, with or Beasts with Leapfroggers and Rat Packs to refill the board, then you’re usually screwed over by a very crappy mechanic. And even the counters I’ve just mentioned requires early dedication, and some very specifics cards to be obtained.

Overpower with brute force? Murlocs are some of the easiest type to boost and they can be challenging to kill, even without the Poisonous buff.

Each minion type should be able to be competitive in the end game, when played correctly. But when high-stats Quilboars, Elementals, Pirates, or Demons are dealt with like they were nothing, then you know there’s something fundamentally flawed with the idea of Poisonous.

There, the rant is over.

Possible Solutions?
I understand that coming here and writing a post complaining about this mechanic opens the door to criticism. But I’ve also given this some thought and I’ve put together a few ideas that could potentially fix this. This is just a brainstorm and I’m not saying they would work as plug-and-play solutions, but maybe they could be explored.

  • 1. Getting rid of Poisonous altogether.
    Simple enough, I think that would be the most viable solution. Rework Murlocs if the imbalance feels too great without this mechanic, but I think it needs to go.

  • 2. New game mechanic: “Treatening”.
    This would act as a secondary level Taunt. Minions with Taunt retain their top priority but once they’re removed, “Treatening” minions come next. Other minions with this mechanic could include Soul Juggler, Khadgar, Rat Pack, Impatient Doomsayer, Dazzling Lightspawn, Mechano-Tank, Baron Rivendare, Palescale Crocolisk, Dread Admiral Eliza.

  • 3. Minion type with passive immunity to Poisonous.
    There’s a lack of a straight-forward counter to Poisonous, and I think every mechanic should have something fairly simple to use against it. A bit like Unstable Ghoul is a simple solution to get rid of the Divine Shields when playing against George the Fallen, Mechs, or Dragons with Nadina the Red. Or like Zapp Slywick can take care of a Soul Juggler, Baron Rivendare, Mama Bear, or Palescale Crocolisk. Having a minion type immune to Poisonous may be a viable solution. Either a new type or perhaps an existing one, like the Quilboars?

  • 4. New game mechanic: “Toxic”.
    It’s a bit complex but the goal would be to convert the Murlocs’ mechanic into a lesser version of Poisonous, while allowing the 1/1 Deadly Spore, and the 2/3 Cobra from the Venomstrike Trap secret to retain their full Poisonous effect.

    “Toxic” could be something like “Reduces the opponent minion’s Health by half, and deals X damage.”.

    The first part is a compromise between the regular fighting of two non-Poisonous minions, and losing a 70/70 minion to a nothing/nothing Poisonous Murloc.

    The second part is the solution to a problem. The Attack value of a minion with Poisonous is irrelevant since it’s a one-hit-kill. Because this new mechanic would already reduce the opposing minion’s health in half, the full Attack value couldn’t be added to that, as it would be too steep. It can’t be ignored either because we’d end up with defending minion going from 4 Health to 2 Health, then to 1 Health, and having no way to kill it.

    I suggest that once a Murloc obtains the “Toxic” buff, the Attack value doesn’t apply directly but is used to determine the “deals X damage” part, after the reduction. Maybe something like 25% of the minion’s Attack value? So a 20/30 Toxic Murloc would reduce the opposing minion’s Health by half and then deal 5 damage to it (25% of 20)? Something like that. This would obviously require a lot of testing.

  • 5. SI:Sefin cannot cast Poisonous on himself.
    At the very least, it should require two Murlocs for this strategy to work.

  • *6. Remove some of the Health buffs for Murlocs *
    The moment SI:Sefin is in play, it’s only Health that’s important. Currently, 4 Murlocs grant Health from Battlecries, 1 grants Health from playing more Murlocs. Add the neutral cards, Deathrattles (i.e. Impulsive Trickster), end of turn boosts, and/or Blood Gems, and/or Bananas… It’s too easy for Murlocs to gain Poisonous AND a massive Health pool.

  • 7. Increase the Avenge count on SI:Sefin
    It’s not much, but at least it would help a little bit with the balance.

Conclusion
So as of this moment, I think I’m done with Battlegrounds, and that’s unfortunate because I like this mode. I’ve been playing since it got launched and my current record is 284 first places and 2113 top-4, so I’d like to think that this post and the way I’m seeing this situation is backed by a good chunk of experience playing this mode. Right now, it’s hard to enjoy new elements added to the game. Stuff like the shields to balance the heroes, or discovering new heroes, or playing around with the buddy mechanic, all of that is overshadowed by the annoyance of seeing at least one person playing Poisonous Murlocs every game the minion type is in the rotation.

So many times I’ve wanted to come on the forums and express my frustration with this, but I never went through with it. Well no more. It’s done. I’ve reached my breaking point.

After all this time I’ve come to the conclusion that the developers of BG have no desire to actually balance the format out. I only say that because IF they are… then they are complete idiots. It’s hard to fathom that they would allow complete idiots to continue to control the format, so I have to assume they literally do not want to balance it out.

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You write this whole wall of text but all you need to do is play dragons or mechs and you can delete murlocs if you know what you are doing.

Murlocs don’t often win first place in my lobbies, so maybe watch some high level streams to see something different you can try.

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You are hilarious how you act as if this whole format isn’t 100% luck dictated. You act as if people actually get to make a decision on what they want. Sometimes, but not often. Most times there is the obvious best minion and no spare gold to refresh. When do you magically get to decide what tribe you want?

When you play the mode properly.

The best minions are sometimes not obvious, and that’s the point.

Murlocs are the pirate warriors of bg. They farm noobs and fall at higher ranks.

wall of text crits you for 5000 dmg

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I agree with Kage, I think it’s a bit funny how you minimize the challenges of choosing a specific type, or to change an army mid-game and getting the right cards to defend against Poisonous Murlocs.

It’s not very smart to aim for a single build before the game even starts, just in case someone gets lucky and has 3-4 Poisonous on the board. It’s not because Murlocs is in the rotation at the start of the game that everyone should have to gear up their entire game towards Dragons or Mechs just in case (if those types are even in the rotation to begin with).

There are Heroes like Jaraxxus, Chenvaala and Alexstrasza that force players into a specific minion type but it also requires luck to actually be offered that type in Bob’s Tavern. With limited gold to refresh, you can’t always go fishing for what you want, and you often have to accept what’s there.

Yeah and Battlegrounds works quite differently than regular Hearthstone. SI:Sefin is a Tier 5 minion so there’s no way anyone can get that in the first half of the game. And by that time, everyone’s already invested into some kind of build and it’s usually too late to drop everything and go in a different direction to defend against Poisonous.

You are so full of it. “When played properly”? So you must have like a 20k rating, huh? Because if stupid me plays at 8k, you must be way up there.

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If you aren’t looking at what poison does to your build you aren’t playing correctly. You should assume that poison will show up at some point and you better have answers or you’re done.

IT’s a huge part of getting high ranking in the mode.

And you clearly are missing the point that there are no straight-forward counters to 5-7 Poisonous. Some games, the very first time you face the player using Murlocs, there are already a few Poisonous on the board.

But of of curiosity, go ahead, tell me how Quilboars defend against Poisonous Murlocs. One of them has a Divine Shield, great. One. What about the rest? The whole minion type revolves around using Blood Gems to build a strong board, a strategy that is utterly worthless in the face of Poisonous. End of turn Blood Gems from Charlga? Useless. Double Blood Gems from Agamaggan? Useless. Windfury? Useless. Frenzy? Useless. Taunt that gets boosts from other minions getting buffed? Useless.

What about Demons? Sacrificing your Health to get a big Wrath Weaver on board? Useless. Famished Felbat that makes all your Demons absorb minions at the end of turn for massive stats? Useless. And you won’t get enough pings from Soul Juggler to keep up with the Murlocs’ massive Health pool.

You can’t always have a golden Selfless Hero and Baron Rivendare combo on hand to address this.

So if you think the whole mode should revolve around defending against one mechanic within one minion type, then there’s obviously a balancing problem. If you think we need a collective efforts from the other 7 players to get rid of the Poisonous Murloc opponent before his board becomes unmanageable, then there’s obviously a balancing problem. If you’re saying that some minion types shouldn’t be played at all just because Murlocs are part of the rotation, then there’s obviously a balancing problem.

From the few post you wrote, you seem to be implying that the mechanic is perfect as it is, and the responsibility is 100% in the hands of the players to adapt to it, and 0% on Blizzard to balance the mechanic better.

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Look, if you watched the pros dragons was the most common endgame.

I’ve made my feelings known in multiple threads about selfin, so idk what you think I’m saying it’s 100% player problem.

Again, the last nerf of quest warrior was to help noobs who couldn’t beat it because it was functionally dead at the high end of the ladder. Murlocs are very similar.

Poison is in every game. Every. Single. Game. You have to understand how to play with and around it - just like every other mechanic in the mode.

It isn’t my job to teach you how to play, but your complaints about murlocs sound like you want blizzard to nerf the mode so you feel better rather than some objective problem that plagues all competitive ranks.

The first step is to get off the idea that the whole mode is luck because there are dozens of small skills that are the difference between climbing and washing out early.

I just don’t understand why you keep bringing up regular Hearthstone, as if that Warrior Quest thing you’re talking about is on equal footing with this. Battlegrounds is a different game altogether and it’s becoming obvious that you don’t know much about that.

lol oookay. I had a good feeling this is the way this was going. I offered 7 different ways to mitigate this problem and what, none of them are worth your consideration? Your answer is basically “play dragons”. lol I think got all I needed to know from you. And it’s not impressive.

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Altho most often than not, i obliterate the players that have poison murlocs with a setup that has no poison, i kinda agree with OP that it’s just not that fun to face them.
Whenever murlocs are in play, most of the lobby focuses on getting SI7 because even if you’re not going for the entire murloc tribe, having just that poison one is equvalent to having over 9000 attack minion.

The best and most enjoyable games in battlegrounds personaly, are the ones that don’t contain a murloc tribe.

Also, battlegrounds is not a game of skill. It’s a game of memorization and luck. There is no “skill” involved in knowing which minion to get when. I think the phrase is often misused when talking about something requiring decision making. Playing APM pirate tribe is a physical skill. Knowing when to refresh and when not, which minion to buy and which to sell is not skill, it’s foresight.

I don’t see a problem. There’s nothing to mitigate. You want to take away the exact mechanic that solves the worst BG problem: broken stat lines.

Big things are neat! We all love them. But if one player lucks into golden nomi on turn seven the game is over unless poison is a thing. I’m not worried about it because I expect it to be there and work on position and planning to mitigate my risks. It doesn’t always work, but neither does poison. That’s the mode. You beat the lobby you are in or they beat you.

Wasn’t trying to be because the accolades of random people don’t do anything. If you thought I was a giraffe it wouldn’t make my neck any longer, so I generally don’t spend much time worrying about how I am perceived by the masses.

Like I said, I have no issues playing the mode as is because I understand what I am doing and it isn’t my job to share that knowledge with people who honestly aren’t ready to hear it.

Instead of saying the mode is broken, fix yourself - but that’s not a popular answer. It is, however, the one that will help you win more.

It’s exactly the same problem, though. The people vocally bashing pirate warrior were in gold and silver and sucked at the game. It wasn’t a playable deck at most legend ranks because good players knew how to work around it and win plus the meta was not receptive to it.

This is exactly the situation with murlocs in bg. In noob lobby, murloc is king because people just make straightline builds.

You made a comment earlier about transitions and it sticks out because knowing when, why, and exactly how to transition is specifically one of the skills that separates bands of players.

what if i didnt complain about pirates but i think murloc lobbies are boring as hell. where does that put me on the player ungodliness ladder

its easy to tell when someone is low rank, they complain about murlocs

everyone knows the true evil is divine shield

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You’re all talk. Give us a screenshot of that 20k rating you must have since yoj are so much better than the rest.

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Win more and you will see less murloc.