It is not realistic to try to win a DPS race against face hunter. It has much more damage early while it has secrets that hinder any attack attempt.
No its not impossible but dependent on your deck and against certain deck types virtually impossible if they start the way he did and even if not, I have played these types of matches a few times now and even when I’m about to turn the corner and win they pull Leroy for lethal or some BS that barely kills me before I likely turned the corner to dominate.
Some decks can outlast them easier, Warrior for example pushing armor out, could handle this a lot better and survive to turn that corner with ease just on hero power alone let alone cards that grant armor and health which fit its style.
The style of deck I was playing controls well but there’s no real way to include healing without completely changing it in to something different which may be good but I feel it will ultimately cost it matches by trying to tech against this one style.
And yes there is cards that could help that I don’t have and probably should like wishing for the perfect card, there is plenty of stylistic match ups that don’t fair well, my biggest grief is aggro in general and then to add to it the possibility of 8 Leper Gnomes, the 2/1 version that does 3 instead of 2, that alone is 30 DMG not counting the 12+ from Hero powering to summon the Gnomes, and any/all misc weapons, effects and spells that go face.
It makes a whole lot of sense against a Priest or Warrior and maybe most classes or at least decks that include a decent amount of healing or armor, but against every other type of deck its basically an auto-win condition.
How limiting is that? Aggro is limiting enough forcing you to have some type of AOE dmg to deal with tokens or auto concede against decks that spam and buff tokens. Reason being there is no straight forward approach to tech against it. You can include AOE but still have to draw it, still play from behind every turn cleaning up while they go face and then spam even more and bigger harder to remove minions every turn and good decks have enough overall value generation that its harder and harder to burn someone out completely when they can just take a turn off to randomly discover 2-3 cards several times over. More and more minions have 5+ health and even 9+ health where 4 dmg and 8 dmg AOE still isn’t enough and you’re still playing clean up from behind while they go face and need a miracle RNG spell or effect or crazy combo to really turn the corner on them or pray they draw poorly and don’t have a mill to auto or near auto-win condition.
Res Priest is bad in standard but at least you can not attack the first couple rounds and delay their +3/+3 ability, at least you can sap big cards back in their hand, corrupt their death pool, silence their buffs and taunts and DR effects, etc, there is answers to those problems, there’s no direct / straight forward answer to 30 DMG from Gnomes / DR dmg and additional 12+ from Hero power and potentially 60+ more in their deck other than being a specific class that can mass silence, heal, etc.
Win/Lose/Draw doesn’t matter to me, taking away any chance of making it past turn 7-10 with insane virtually unstoppable face damage that only a handful of decks from a handful of classes can answer does. I want to at least have the illusion that my decisions matter more than who goes first and who goes face and who gets the coin and who draws what when. And not have to copy and paste some top deck just to play competitively, that’s a balance issue.
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If its not a big enough issue to tech against, then its not a big enough issue to warrant nerfs.
Its the first face deck in like 2-3 years thats had any sort of meta relevance, and its not even the best Hunter deck. Leave it be.
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It is a big deal to tech against, you can’t, unless you’re a specific deck that doesn’t need to. Just because it isn’t a top deck doesn’t mean it isn’t gamebreaking and limiting other decks from being viable.
The game has been polluted with face decks from day 1. First deck in 2-3 years? You’re delusional.
Whether it is face-hunter or OTK or auto-win the game keeps including and improving these broken mechanics that put a choke hold on being able to home brew a half decent deck. It forces the “meta” in to copy and paste form of top decks that are tried and tested and anything outside of that is irrelevant.
The whole “It’s not even the best”, “there’s a lot worse”, all these arguments are pointless. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. The fact that mexican cartels are murdering people doesn’t mean that oil companies polluting the environment doesn’t matter or vice versa.
What people don’t seem to grasp that cling to these comments of “its not the worse exploit/broken mechanic” is that they’re all problems, they all limit what is possible by making certain types/builds/decks unviable. It doesn’t matter what is #1 what matters is that a balance issue is a balance issue.
This type of deck seems to be conceptualized to give problems for certain deck types without realizing that it eliminates a large portion of possibilities by forcing opponents to must have x y or z and if they don’t they’re not viable.
If “Healing”, “Armor”, etc is suppose to be an identity for Priest, WAR, etc, then other classes shouldn’t require it to have a positive win rate and the reason you’re seeing only specific decks dominate the meta each and every time is because of balance issues.
You don’t seem to realize that you’re entire statement that “it isn’t even the best/worst” depicts the exact balance issues. The reason there is a best is because the game is broken and continues to include broken cards instead of balancing the game so that any/every option is viable and the game is competitive regardless of what style or class you are.
There doesn’t have to be auto-win, auto-concede situations and that is poor design. Stop defending lazy developers who can’t do simply math to understand what is broke and how to fix it. If a card is OP, make it cost more, or make its ability do less, if a card isn’t viable at all, make it cheaper, make it stronger, continue to improve and nerf everything to balance so that it isn’t an issue.
It isn’t that difficult to understand what is broken whether it is OP or under powered and adjust it ever so slightly and continue to monitor stats and make adjustments on everything and fine tune it all to a point of balance where decisions matter more than all this other BS
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If its not a big enough issue for you to tech against, then its not an issue. You have chosen not to use the options at your disposal to increase your winrate against that deck, instead to request it be nerfed so you dont have to tech against it. Its not over performing, fact. If its such a big issue for YOU then tech against it, and make a sacrifice in other matchups.
Nope, I am not delusional. Face decks have not been meta for over 2 years now. aggro =/= face. You not liking it, doesnt make it broken by default, especially when you ADMIT you refuse to use the tech options at your disposal.
You can write as many essays as you want, but unless you are willing to actually try teching against it, then you have absolutely no reason to complain.
Okay so again, explain how a mage techs against a hunter who uses 8 leper gnomes, (6 from quest 2 in deck) 2x sandtrooper, and fills the rest of their deck with the endless possibilities for hunter and neutral for face damage.
Choosing not to tech against? Tell me how to tech against it with a mage.
Ice Barrier for a start. that negates 3 lepper gnomes by itself.
My highlander warrior laughs at that hunter deck. They’re basically a free win.
Ice Barrier wouldn’t of changed anything in my situation and WAR is a completely different class let alone deck
Then you accept the risk. If you are unwilling, as you are, to tech against a deck which you can, then thats very much a YOU problem.
I knew it would happen as soon as i saw the sidequest - people who have never seen an actual face deck in action would whine.
You have not given a single good reason to nerf Face Hunter.
Again, how do I tech against it, I’m fully willing, please explain
Tech doesnt mean instawin. Ice Barrier is your tech.
The problem is when this deck isn’t the most popular but you can find often, almost autolosing the 20% of all match won’t be solved with tech cards if this reduce too much the chances to win against the 80% of the other matchs. Mage should have some card that reduce this weakness, ice barrier isn’t so good as to use just this as tech card against hunter, in the early just lose tempo which could generate that receive more damage, annulated it; and in mid, this secret can be ignored just spamming hero power, spells and deathrattles
Mage could pretty much pick his draw each turn and he is losing to face hunter.
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Well, look, i’m no hearthstone expert, but If a deck has 30 inevitable face damage and capability to put it out before the earliest neutral healing, i’d say there’s a design problem here. If the deck has even more inevitable damage, mate, that’s even worse.
I mean really, what can a player do in this situation, If he can’t:
-Trade the board (or take more damage)
-Heal beyond the damage output (either he’s a Highlander and hope for the perfect card to delay, or spends the entire turn 3 on Ice Barrier, even the entire turn 4, since he has hardly any 1 mana play, which gives the Hunter more value, since beyond the inevitable damage he gets to attack with his Minions)
-Or outdamage the hunter.
What would be the play here? Sit and Hope an Aggro deck does not draw consistently?
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Exactly what everyone else is saying.
And I’m sorry but no, Ice Barrier isn’t the answer or even an answer, that is 2 cards that prevent/restore a total of 16 dmg/hp. 2/30 isn’t a viable option to “tech” against unless it is combined with guaranteed draw, mill, or in some way ensured and even if you draw both and play both as early as possible as the other posts state that isn’t a good turn 3 or 4 even against this specific deck, you take at least 6+ damage just by allowing them to live for 2 turns, more likely 10-14+ which means you gave up 2 turns for 2-6HP, 7 mana worth of value for 2-6HP and possibly still in the negative and you’re sitting in an even worse position and they still carry the 2-3 damage each when its all said and done. You’re not going to sheep 1 out of many for 4 mana which is also going to allow most to survive yet another round, you can freeze them for maybe 2-3 turns if you have them in your deck and if you draw them which just delays the inevitable. These aren’t viable tech options and they aren’t going to change the outcome. They will completely change my deck and many others and that is also as stated by responses above going to lower your overall win rate against other matches you were winning breaking the deck and making it not viable at all.
Honestly a better tech is Mirror Image which I’m going to try by replacing Cinderstorm and see how it plays overall. It prevents up to 4 individual attacks each which would buy me a couple extra rounds to pull off some meme RNG spells and possibly get lucky with a silence and destroy all, some type of healing/armor or some other crazy / random effects that might answer the board and recover HP or prevent the DR’s from triggering. Can also slow down other face damage in other matches and strive towards the same goal of making it to later rounds and at least having a chance to play some RNG that could answer some of the absurd value plays that classes have now.
Most other classes have this resolved just being that class or with specific cards/ decks that are actually viable in the meta, Warlock has a ton of healing now as does Priest, Druid has a decent amount plus armor, Warrior has armor, Shaman has healing, PLD has healing, some more than others and some decks/cards more than others but any/all of those have the option to heal in big ways, gain armor, lifesteal spells and minions and weapons, Galakrond and other viable quests and hero cards, Mage simply doesn’t.
It’s in this weird spot where its basically a number of meme decks that aren’t truly viable because if they were they would be too OP. I understand that, I’m not designing these cards or promoting that Mage needs to be more powerful, in certain match ups and depending on the deck/card choice it can be anywhere from annoying to absurd already.
But why no healing? Or armor? Is an armor spell or healing spell really out of character for Mage? It seems that would be more out of character for Warlock but they designed so many self damage cards they had to make it more than just killing yourself for tiny boosts in arbitrary statistics and give the player a way to heal.
I can understand why hunter and rogue lack in that department, for 1, Rogue steals cards so it technically can have a lot of healing, it is just RNG based, and them and Hunter don’t really need it, Hunter can also use viable mechs and attach zillax for a decent heal and has lots of damage prevention through control cards, rush, secrets etc.
Why not mage though? Especially at this point in the development of cards it seems like healing is almost required in a lot of match ups because opponents can and will either heal or armor up without missing a beat. Eventually summon boards and boards of mid-high stat minions, more than ever, never have their been so many 9+ health minions that can’t be removed by almost any AOE, never before have you been able to consistently flood the board with 5/5ish+ minions, and although aggro has always been a thing the ability to summon a board of tokens repeatedly and even ramp it up to mid-stat minions and still keep the board flooded is higher than ever.
The old win condition of mage was simply damage spells and control with low-mid minions and that isn’t nearly as viable as before between the abilities to heal / gain armor, control tools and bigger minions, there isn’t a whole lot of match ups where it makes sense to ping your opponent to the face with spells and not expect them to turn around and heal and now you’re out of your win condition(s) and they’re out of lethal range again. Most my matches in fact will get to within lethal range, then they’ll gain armor from a new Hero and be just out of range or and next thing you know they’re climbing back towards full Health plus armor and a board of minions, a handful of resources and although it has cards like Pyroblast which on paper sound like finishers they can hardly be used without being wasted any more so they burn a whole in your hand and take up a slot in your deck if used, they aren’t really viable any more. Even fireball ends up being a 4 cost 6 or less health removal which is worse than a lot of cheaper and more effective control tools all around.
And on that note it used to be that Mage was one of the few with control tools outside of minions and board presence and now it seems like virtually everyone has better control tools than mage, more ways to heal damaged minions that were on the brink of death, etc. And even if/when these come in the form of neutral cards, they synergize right in to a lot of other decks where they simply aren’t reliable/viable options for most mage decks.
I’m not a “Mage player”. I am more of an all around / home brew player who occasionally gets tired of losing and plays some more reliable options but I almost always try to home-brew or in the least change it up in my own way and not simply copy/paste. I use any/all classes, not some upset mage only player asking for more OP ways to win.
I’m saying there is clear balance issues as stated in the post above, when you have 30 damage coming off 8 mana + Hero Powers over 6 turns, by turn 7 that is 44+ damage if removed instantly, for 28 mana which is exactly how much mana you get over 7 turns without the crystal. And off only 6 cards played from hand/deck so there is still 24 cards left or used instead which all carry potential or inevitable face damage ranging from 1-6+ each. Weapons, face spells, charges, etc.
And again as stated in the multiple responses prior, I didn’t call for a nerf, I just point to the absurdly imbalanced design and if anything I called for answers. I don’t mind that it is there, it isn’t in and of itself incredible or as you stated it isn’t the #1 deck, but give me the option to have answers AT LEAST. More cards that grant your hero immune next turn? Not sure how game-breaking that is, mage used to have the secret for this specific reason and it at least granted 2 extra turns to prevent lethal and make something happen, now with all the “discover” effects I think they HOF’d it because it like many other cards can be abused in the most annoying way, your opponent can’t die except from fatigue damage which is stupid in and of itself because your Hero isn’t “immune” if it can take damage, found that out the hard way.
Or add some healing or armor for mage that is more comparable to what other classes get. Mage pays 3 Mana for a secret that can be counter spelled, destroyed, and is a conditional “once your hero is attacked” trigger, and although rare, I’ve had games where the opponent didn’t need or want to go face and was able to achieve lethal without it. Other classes like druid can draw a card for 1 mana and on top of it get as mana armor as cards in their hand. That sounds perfect for a mage. I wish I had that.
Other classes can convert their HP to Armor then heal, or gain absurd amounts of armor into the 50-100 range, but Mage is left with 16 armor for 6 mana on 2 cards? That’s sad.
It doesn’t even have the card that gained armor when casting a spell which again is conditional and requires multiple cards a ideal for mid-late game play, but at least it had a way to gain some extra armor if they couldn’t remove it.
This concept of auto-losing matches to certain decks is somewhat unavoidable in certain areas and that is understandable. If you’re aggro and you play a deck that has insane healing and the ability to control board, heal back up, and all your resources run out and you’re facing someone with a hand full of cards with high value and you placed all your eggs in one basket, understandable.
If you’re running a well rounded deck and able to answer every minion they put on the board and on top of passively dealing face damage there’s no way to stop, not having any viable means of healing, their minions also peg 1/15th of your health and they’re able to summon 1-4 per turn, that’s insanely imbalanced. That’s a design flaw.
Especially when said deck is already at the bottom of the top decks. The class itself is and I’m using a home brew meme deck that is surprisingly playable and competitive until I run into decks like this and other aggro that spam tokens and buff and even when cleared as efficiently as possible they still bring you within lethal range by turn 6 ish and you don’t have any viable means of healing so its gg auto-concede. That’s broken. Stop defending it.
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Face hunters don’t like taunt cards especially ones that heal as well. So thats:
2 x khartut defender - heals for 2 x 6 = 12 health points in total. Cost = 6 if you can last that long.
2 x rotten applebaum - heals for 2 x 4 = 8 health points in total. Cost = 5.
2 x rusty recycler - lifesteal and is a mech so can stick things onto it, though tricky. Cost = 5.
Because they are taunt cards they’ll protect your main character from taking face damage so that’s an additional bonus. Use lesser taunt cards to ensure can survive long enough to get those heal cards out onto the board. Use those cards in conjunction with ice barrier, mirror image, freeze spells etc. Use fast card draw to ensure you have those cards available when you need them. But don’t attack with those defensive heal cards unless you are sure because hunter will just use their secrets against you.
There are also lesser heal cards available though be wary against teching too much against one particular archetype because will then do badly against all other ones. Only get 30 cards to choose from after all.
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If you tech like that you will lose vs all other classes. Good luck with that.
You need to heal or add armor. There is no other way of getting through the damage. It’s unavoidable and adds up perfectly to 30 damage by turn 7-8 regardless of your mulligan
Holy hypocrisy Batman.
If its perfectly fine for Face Hunter to get stomped by Priest with their all in strat, its just as fair for them to stomp on Mage with it.
It’s not flawed design for a class to have a weakness, its GOOD design. I get it, you dislike aggro, you’ve made that abundantly clear in your last paragraph. Your deck is weak to them. That’s not a design flaw, but a weakness of your deck. YOUR deck would be a design flaw if it didn’t have a weakness.
Aggro is essential for a healthy meta so, no, i wont stop defending it.