Hearthstone's Standard situation

Hello fellow Hearthstone players,

In this topic I would like to discuss the current situation of the Standard format from a regular player standpoint. I chose to write this post because I’ve seen multiple content creators but also simple players complaining about the lack of fun that they experience playing the format nowadays.

As someone who has played the game for ten years, I analyze the problem this way : The game has shifted from a slower grinding game where advantage is built up progressively to a much more explosive game where a single draw can flip the table. I believe that the banalization of mana cheating (Thirsty Drifter, Desert Nestmatron…) and lifesteal (Tigress Plushy, Pop’gar…) is mostly responsible for the situation that we’re experiencing now. If you take a look at what the meta decks are at the moment, there isn’t a single one of them that is not using one or both of these keywords. The biggest example of this is Zilliax who, despite being nerfed three times, still remains the strongest legendary in the game.

Furthermore, by adding more randomness (Discover, Plague, Excavate…) to a game that is already, by essence, influenced by RNG (card game), It’s easy to understand why the games feel so out of control. Overall, I think that the mechanics that I’ve quoted above are lazy ways to make “creative cards” and should’nt be as prevalent as we see today.

Finally, we don’t play a game because it is balanced, we play a game because it is fun and brings interactiveness. This is why a card such as "Reno, Lone Ranger"got nerfed despite not being part of a top meta deck. I find pretty absurd the fact that control decks need to play an anti-fun card to be viable, I think it reveals a very important design issue.

Thank you all for getting through this, Im looking forward to see what your opinions are concerning this subject. Have a great day.

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i personally like lifesteal, but i play exclusively wild and like it against aggro and demon seed quest warlock… i dunno. sorry for commenting on your standard thread. i understand the dislike of mana cheat and lifesteal really. and randomness i guess even though i find randomness fun in certain ways.

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I stopped playing wild a few years ago, but it’s still nice to see other people’s opinions regardless. It seems like the format has pretty much been abandoned which is why I decided to switch to Standard. Nonetheless, thank you for your response.

I have been playing card games since 1993 with Magic the Gathering.

The situation has evolved, but one major thing that changed the dynamic of these games is the internet and acces to the cards, and meta deck built by other players. Also, the " easyness" to buy cards has changed the way we play.

I find cards games are fun when you have to build, play, test, revise your deck and have options. In this fashion I find Hearthstone to be a “find the best meta deck online” and “pay to win” game, and get bored pretty quickly, seeing the same decks being played over and over.

I have thought of this and I think there could be ways to make it more fun in that sense: bringing the game back to crafting, tweaking and playing the best you can, instead of buying the best deck that requires no decision making in playing it.

Here are some pointers that could help. Of course, this is considering that crafting, tweaking and having to actually make decisions is a fun factor.

1-Publish cards more often. Instead of a collection every four months, publish a number of cards of that collection every week. Thus, players have to constantly revise their decks and cannot wait for references or premades on the web.
2-Make more powerfull cards common. That way, they are more accessible, and it’s less pay to win. Make rare cards original and cool, with special art. So price of rare cards is based on cosmetics, originality and not power (so it’s less pay to win).
3-Create cards that give more choices. Cards that offer choices when you play actually make you think, and put you in control. It favors decision making, instead of just playing the obvious combo cards. Ex: Look at Gloomheaven, the cards always offer two choices.
4-Do less ultra combo cards, that favor just stacking obvious cards. Like basically just saying to players: “Take all the Dragon cards, put them together, and then, don’t even think of what you play, it will be powerfull whatsoever, and all you have to do is play every single card you can every turn, without even thinking”.
5-Create cards with random names, or that players have to name themselves. That way, it’s not possible to find the card when searching online. You have to figure it yourself.

Again, these are things that would make the game more aimed at thinking for yourself… which, the more I think of it, will probably not appeal to most players who just want to win. :wink:

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Standard is littered with anti-fun cards. Helya, doomkin, boom boss etc…

Somewhere along the line Team 5’s idea of good card design has been perverted into making your opponent want to uninstall the game forever. No wonder standard is a bot wasteland for most ranks.

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Well…

When someone did say that buff plagues was a bad idea the first thing that happened was some people being stupdly dumb talking about make the game “diverse”.

Reality is that people here don’t know fun even if they were slapled on the face with it to death and i probably not different.

Therefore they should be ignored.

There are tons of older games and even entire documentaries on card mechanics that would help a lot in development but devs prefer to hear the playerbase.

People kinda deserve the game they have but it does not isent the devs from the bad work either.

Hearthstone websites such as HSReplay have definitely changed the way we play the game. However I think that this was pretty much inevitable like every other card game, and I think that trying to combat this is a useless fight. I believe that we should just deal with it and try to solve the problems that we can realistically solve such as card design.

Concerning the accessibility of the game, while it’s not perfect, we have to admit that the game is much more accessible now than what it used to be. If we take a look at what the Hearthstone quests gave you back in 2015 for example and compare it with what we have now, we must admit that it is something that the developers have improved over the years. Moreover, we also need to take into account the fact that this game is a business and that the company needs to make profit by selling packs which is why asking for very strong common cards seems to be a bit unreasonable to me.

However I do kinda agree with you on your 4th point, I think that some cards are just straight up overpowered but I think that it is more of a general problem (If everything is strong than nothing is strong I guess).

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i find myself closing hearthstone after 1-2 games currently. there are no decks i find fun that are at least semi-competetive and none of the meta decks i face are any fun to verse.

expansion looks like it will shake a few things up, at least from what i can tell. might be needed in this boring state

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To sum it up:
Game has shifted from gaining incemental advantage on and off board and managing your resources to individual cards dominating the game and gameplay patterns you had zero way of interacting with and losing you the game turn 2,3 or whatever turn it is. And damage from hand being absurdly high.

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No, the reality is different people like different things and there’s no universal answer for what is objectively “fun” in any way shape or form.

I think deck building is boring and unfun, several posters here think it should be the entire focus of the game… both are correct.

Oh wow, how novel to think the people that pay you are worth listening to.

This is clearly the case, but the only real question is how far is too far.

I don’t want to go back to fatigue value piles of discover trash, but there are clearly cards here that are too powerful an effect, ruining the experience of playing the game.

I just think it’s hilarious that this card is on this list.

The only people who hate this card are trying to draw all their cards for some broken combo or playing the greediest of value decks.

It’s a very fair and balanced card and it really don’t have any sort of immediate impact on the game. Most of the time I see this card I get an easy win because waiting for plagues to kill people is slower than watching paint dry.

If you have any sort of proactive presence to win the game, Helya isn’t scary in the slightest.

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People are worth hearing for problems.

When you hear people for solutions you just suck at your job.

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That sort of arrogance runs companies into the ground.

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No.

This is just called taking time to study your issue rather than be a populist.

You tell what your problem is and then people who are paid for this will evaluate the situation and come with an solution when necessary.

If you still not like the result then you’re free to play something else.

That idea that you have to be a slave of public opnion is just as wrong as not hearing people at all.
It isn’t a sustainable long term practice to not have direction at all and just do whatever people tell you.

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I didn’t say that, you did. But that isn’t the same as saying this:

Because there are times when the customers know better than the engineers.

Then the costumer should go build his own game

I bet it will be a dress up game.

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Nah, that requires effort and “effort” is not a word in my millennial dictionary. I prefer to cry over and over until someone feels sorry for me.

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I completely agree with the selection of cards that you highlighted and I think that Helya is a good example of a design issue. The card by itself isn’t that strong when you compare it with boom boss for instance but it’s bad in the sense that it is heavily influenced by RNG which makes it frustrating. Generally speaking, I would also like to add that, when designing a card, developers should eventually consider if it’s bypassing one of the game’s core mechanics (mana, fatigue, stats…). There’s no point of having a mana system if we just create cards that have a 0 mana cost and a strong effect, otherwise we would just play Yu-Gi-Oh.

Well, I don’t agree that the issue is a keyword like lifesteal since it’s one of the worst keywords next to things like taunt and deathrattle because they are reactionary keywords subject to silencing and other types of removal but lifesteal on minions in particular tend to be slow and made better with other keywords such as rush (one of the stronger keywords).

But mana cheating is (and has been) a problem for years and the result of years of mana cheating stems from the same place Hearthstone has seen pretty break-neck power creep which, IMO, is from not fully exploring card design. This is pretty apparent in the number of archetypes that, over the years, have been completely abandoned or had support re-introduced so much later that they are disconnected from initial waves of support (think elemental shaman).

Other types of old card design were abandoned because the cards they were attached to were just made to be weak. Keywords like inspire were largely put on cards that were overcosted for their stats with rewards that, even at the time of release, were bad. A comparison might be 4 mana 2/2 minion with an inspire ability to summon two 1/1 treants versus a 5 mana 5/5 with inspire shuffle the highest cost minion from your opponent’s hand to their deck. Clearly one of these are better than the other but the former example is more within range of what we actually ended up getting with inspire cards. Then we have the situation of keywords being locked behind set flavor and is Blizzard’s reasoning on why they don’t re-use keywords within newer sets. For example, Nostalgic Clown has the exact same conditions to constitute having the corrupt keyword but doesn’t.

Moreover, most keywords never leave their native set (I mean this both technically but also spiritually). This means that Blizzard artificially has to create new cards in unexplored design spaces but is quickly bankrupting that same creative design space. The solution then becomes doing more of the same but bigger and cards that were released even 3 years ago don’t really hold up well compared to cards being released within the last few sets whereas other card games (like Yu-Gi-Oh!) have decks and entire archetypes that see some play on the casual to competitive spectrum (Sky Striker, Branded, P.U.N.K, Dark Magician, synchro piles, etc.). Those archetypes also continue to get support years down the line and often times have up to 2 years of continuous support, as we’ve seen with Branded and Tearlament whereas every new set in Hearthstone focuses on completely unrelated design space from previous sets.

While is seems that this should open up opportunity to home brew (this is largely what happens in Magic), this ends up not being the case because cohesion is so lost set-to-set that only the most obvious cards tend to make the cut. This isn’t always the case, paladin consistently has aggressive cards that support small minion based strategies and each other class has some kind of hallmark but we really often see packages and toolboxes being played over class identity (such as excavate).

And while I think it’s good to have these universal toolboxes, the difference between agency in deck construction between Hearthstone and Magic is that (1) Magic plainly just releases more cards even comparing the standard formats (2) Magic is governed not by class homogenism but by how willing you are to invest land resources into a multicolored deck, the equivalent being dual class cards or tri-class cards (which previously were seen in Mean Streets of Gadgetzan and Scholomance Academy and are making their ‘return’ in Perils in Paradise as the tourist mechanic).

As far as randomness is concerned, it’s pretty apparent that it’s not going anywhere since we’ve had random mechanics since classic and even random card generation has been in the game since the earliest sets with discover being one of the oldest mechanics in the game (November of 2015). It’s pretty cemented into the identity of the game. It’s the ire of a lot of players but it’s also one of the things people are pretty vocal about loving as well.

Luckily, there are alternatives and the main thing you suffer from leaving Hearthstone is FOMO. But if you like the art style, themes, the way the game itself plays out despite RNG then those are good reasons to tolerate RNG enough to play at least even casually. That’s kind of where I am at with the game. I don’t feel married to it, I don’t feel compelled to spend money (I’m not against it if I see product I like or feel like there’s a good bundle – I have heavily invested in sets in the past because I feel kindred to certain cards), but it’s a game and if you’re not having fun then don’t force yourself to endure wasting your time.

Personally, the last 2 years of Hearthstone have made some of my favorite sets between card design and artwork as well as creating death knight which is why I even came back into the game after 3 years of not playing (because I disliked RNG), and although some of my favorite sets are older sets I think there are some cool things being done today. Maybe it doesn’t feel very competitive but you don’t have to treat it that way either.

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What the… :laughing: This back and forth is hilarious.

Anywho, clearly a customer certainly can provide solutions. Hell, oftentimes here solutions are offered before cards are even actually released. Alas, too often those solutions fall on deaf ears. Good examples to point to are some of the streamers we know, like NoHandsGamer, or Kibler. Here we also have the likes of you, or Schyla, or [there’s someone I’m thinking of but can’t recall the name right now]. I’d say the devs quite frequently create problems and subsequently are unable to really fix them.

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