DH - The worst and most boring mistake of blizzard (Not about balance)

Multiplayer Discussion
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This is not a post about balance. Its a post about how DH simply mess up so many aspect of the game that the class by itself just ruin Hearthstone imo.

1 mana hero power …

Do I need to remind you how good was a 1 mana hero power when even/odd deck was leading the meta ? They Fame of hall them so quickly because it was a huge problem balance wise to ether give better hero power or cheaper one.

Well a one mana hero power change a lot the way you play the game and rely on your hero power. You also have the “inspire” card obviously balance around a 2 mana hero power. An 1 one mana hero power literally change how you see your hero power and how you play because its 1 mana, its better than any hero power even if “technically” it the same power per mana spend but its harder to spend 2 mana in a turn compared to 1.

So Blizzard made a classe with that build in, with an advantage of curving out mana much easier (one mana cost hero power) and worse assign it to an attack ability which trigger TONS of existing card balance around a 2 mana hero power … EVERY CLASS was 2 mana cost hero power and MANY MANY MANY aspect of the game turn around this.

Just that is enough to be piss off madly at Blizzard. Was it too hard to figure out a 2 mana ability and not mess up that balance in the game ?

Lack of discover and random effect.

A very important aspect of the game is RNG and discovers. It’s an important part of the game. DH have little to none of those card, making it very “grey”, no color, always always ALWAYS the same thing. Seriously I never saw a class so consistent to a point it’s BORINGGGGG … I mean I just can’t even figure out a way to make a fun DH deck because … it’s almost impossible. Everything is pure stat, pure best in game effect possible … Dam that class is BBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGG

Boring to play, boring to face. ZERO fun even if you try. the “funniest” DH deck I made is a “SEMI” OTK deck and manage to attack a single hit of 20-24 damage … But trust me, that deck work because of NEUTRAL CARD.

Not enough cards

Why on earth you didn’t add new DH card to ALL the standard expansion available and give the new card from the previous expansion to everyone so you know … we can make more type of deck ?

Conclusion

DH don’t feel like a new class, it feel like something so different that it mess up some basic of the game and it’s not fun. 1 mana hero power, no discover/rng/fun effect, very very few card, extremely consistent so every game is the same.

Worse and most boring mistake Blizzard ever made for Hearthstone. Balance can always be fixe in no time, but the class will still be a huge problem even with balance till many more cards are introduce, so for at least a year.

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Demon Hunter was the most ambitious change they’ve ever done to the game, and with people suggesting new classes over and over it was not a bad idea.

In response to your reasons of it being boring, I can only suspect that it’s super biased in your distaste for the class being heavily unbalanced despite your claims otherwise.

1 Mana Hero Power: the 1 mana hero power is reflective to what it does. Genn changed a seemingly 2 mana value for 1 mana while keeping the effect the same. Comparing Genn’s influence to the hero power alterations is not the same as comparing the base power of Demon Hunter’s Hero Power, since DH HP is reflective to its base cost (1 attack for 1 mana) as opposed to giving a 1 attack 1 armor for 1 mana, 1/2 dagger for 1 mana, etc. The real illusion for this being a problem when it really isn’t is that this hero power synergizes heavily with the cards DH was given. In an isolated context, 1 mana 1 attack is trash or mediocre at best.

Lack of Discover/RNG: Sure this may be considered “boring”, but that claim is somewhat opinionated as RNG is hated by many, and the lack of consistency or set strategy inherently makes a deck a lot weaker (see Casino Mage). Many people prefer to have a deck that doesn’t rely on RNG or discover based effects just as long as there is a game plan with it.

The only other counterpart to Discover is for value, but Demon Hunter is not a control deck and does not need to Discover to keep value. Instead, it was already stated that draw power was factored in one of the many strengths of the class, thus removing the need of discover to keep the hand full in this class altogether. The class is a tempo aggressive based class, and card generation through draw is a lot better in regards to power than discover.

Not Enough Cards: This was the biggest factor in regards to introducing the class. A new class with less cards would be a lot weaker due to lack of options, synergy, and flexibility. Here is where it got difficult when designing the class. It was obvious to the designers that a class at a major card variety disadvantage was going to need something else to compensate for it, and that’s where the massive introduction of powercreeped cards came in. By inherently setting the power level of most of the core and first expansion set, Demon Hunter now had better options than ALL the existing cards of relative comparison and competition. While it lacked variety and synergy, the options would be outstanding enough in an isolated context to compete with synergy heavy decks and the many options each class had. Only problem was that they overdid it with the powercreep, and it pushed DH to the top.

Conclusion: You made a inherently incorrect and redundant post just to tell us that Demon Hunter is too powerful.

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So why even reply … /facepalm

No it’s not about balance, I’m a wild player and DH is not even close to be the worse class. Try facing a Glenn Shaman or Pirate Warrior … trust me, you’ll be happy to face a DH instead hehe. I know very little about standard so I can’t even comment about standard balance at all and since you don’t believe me … here a replay.

Replay of me playing my fun Hakkar deck at platinum rank 4, beating the hell out of a DH on turn 6 in wild (Replace the @ by a dot)

hsreplay@net/replay/cCSxqHfobNbRBCa6dzgNWA

Also …

Glenn remove 50% of your cards (odd card can’t be play) … not the DH, you can play even and odd cards and have a one mana hero power. One of the main issue is really how a one mana hero power mess up too many aspect of the game even with the same power ratio compare to a 2 mana hero power simply because it’s easier to spend an extra mana after you play your card in a turn compare to 2 mana. Also you have inspired card that all the sudden are basically DH card. Should have do a 2 mana hero power focus on melee attack and that’s it.

Lack of discover/rng and lack of card are pretty much the same thing and could have been cover up easily by releasing card for the previous standard expansion and just give them away. Make fun not so good cards, we don’t care but give us more option.

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Except games are always changing and demon hunter is fun to play with and against design wise.

Can i point what was well done about demon hunter?

  1. You can play the class as you want.

Sure the best decks are agressive but the purpose behind demon hunter isn’t only about be agressive.
But about your hero being more active during the match.

2.It’s only one out of 10 classes unlike big changes at the past

Like seriously…

I don’t know most here think can i remember people that blizzard design uses to be knee jerk reactions to the past year that leads to the entire other sprectrum of the same problem instead of solve it?

Want one example?

People give feedback that card draw is impacting the game to much and what they do?
They create baku and genn and make matches be decided by from start in order to make draws matter less.

As just one class demon hunter give an different experience but there still other 9 classes playing different to not make you face the same gameplay again and again.

It isn’t like baku and genn where you would see one of they almost every match.
Different ways of gameplay come with different pros and cons and this is the difference that makes demon hunter hero power well designed while baku and genn aren’t.

  1. It increases the skill cap of the game in the long run.

The more different ways to play hearthstone we get the less people gonna be able to actually play one trick poney decks to sucess.
And it means that skill required to deckbuild rises.

Yes, the class has problems for now and for sure needs balance but design wise it is far more well made than most here can really see at the momment.

And for the OP post i really only have one thing to say:
Classes are supossed to play different. If it was supossed to play like the other 9 there would be no need of release it.

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one mana hero power vs a 2 mana hero power is not just play different, it’s also I will use MUCH MUCH MUCH more unspent mana at the end of your turns in a game compare to other class.

This is not playing differently, it make some basic of the game disturb. You even have a game mechanic that all the sudden is twice as powerful for just one class (Inspire). This is breaking basic rule, nothing to do with game play.

They could have made a cool 2 mana hero power like +1 attack, gain windfury till end of turn if you attack a minion, and have your smash effect, attack twice per turn because of his twin blades, hitting the board twice per turn and balance the class around a 2 mana hero power. That hero power would make more sens balance wise and respect more the DH class.

So yeah it’s a huge fail in my book.

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Except that it being 1 mana creating more consistency is an FEATURE.

Like you already recognized.
Blizzard did not enter blind on this simply because we already experience one mana hero powers and how they change the way to play the game.

They already knew what an 1 mana hero power would cause and more important than your respect is the game to be actually fun.

So…

Can we talk about cards like priestless of fury or you really gonna try to change what makes demon hunter unique like this was an symmetric game?

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This is the funniest thing I have read all day.

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That’s why I say its a mistake, they know and sell it as a new feature. But they did it because it will sell mostly… New class with new mechanic always sell. ALWAYS. Go see sells of World of Warcraft expansion that include a new class … $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ …

They know, they know a one mana hero power will be hard to balance out because it mess up some basic of the game and they did it probably by saying “the day DH became a problem, we will make sure to make a few nerf and if it fall too low, who care as long this expansion sell A LOT”

Like you say, they know what they are doing and it’s call $$$$ but its a mistake in game imo.

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It’s more about take a direction YOU not like because mistakes aren’t just this.

Mistakes are when stuff you put at the game not work like you want or when you miss uses of what you put at the game creating undesirable reactions.

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9 times out of 10 they have the most oppressive opening early game that usually makes getting the game back in your favour non-existent. You’re kinda praying the game gives them bad draw.

I concede when I see them. I don’t see the hassle of trying to win against them. Play DH against me guys, I’ll get you down the ladder.

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Not sure why you think the idea of implementing a class in theory was a bad idea. People have been asking for Demon Hunter and Monk classes in Hearthstone for several years now. The only existing problem with the new class is the unbalanced cards.

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I say that because Ben Brode explained years ago about the balance of hearthstone and the difficulties and dangers of implementing a new class. Obviously greed won over logic.

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The biggest problem here isn’t even “greed” but the fact that hearthstone never had an “safe” design and this is actually what make it pretty unique.

If it wasn’t demon hunter we would be here discussing whatever new was at it’s place because design on it is more about what can be did than about what should be done.

Everything has it’s pros and cons.

With that said many games with an “safe” design do not have even half of the sucess of hearthstone has and this tells something about what type of design people like to play with.

Not get me wrong. I not speaking that you’re wrong on what you said.
Just that complain about it is complain about what made the game a sucess in first place.

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I like what you said. I still think the class is an abject failure.

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Since when does it mean that if a part of a player base ask for something but it will “break” the game… worth adding? See this

Ben if i am correct said this about shudderwock to… see what that monstrosity did to HS…

Many more things can make this game interesting then adding a new class right? New features as for 1… this would have zero impact on old features… look at BG.

Blizzard hasnt got a good rep. With adding a new class. Look at necromancer in diablo 3… 4 man rifts with different classes ended in a 4 man necromancer rift that did it all…

Some games arent made to have something introduced later ingame… HS isnt made ti have a extra class…

They should focus on class identities and make overhauls like they did with priest. Balance your existing classes. Focus on them.

And add features and new modes for better Qol

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You forgot to mention most of the DH cards are either mana reducing cards or utility damage cards that also cycle.

They can keep up the pressure and use the cards that they pressure with to also reduce the mana costs of their upcoming turns allowing them to snowball that pressure even more.

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‘Normal’ hero powers are 2 mana for a 0-cost card effect (mage hp is moonfire, paladin hp is wisp…). Now, how much attack can your hero gain from a 0-cost card ? 2 (pounce). DH heropower cost 1 because if it was a card, it would cost less than 0. The reason it look so strong is because it had it’s own great tournament expension.

While I do agree with you on that one, please remember that lots of people hate the randomness of Hearthstone.

Because they are human being ? Do you know how much time and effort it would take to do that ?
Not counting the fact that making cards only for wild means at least half of their playerbase won’t ever see them.

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I hate playing against DH as it is completely out of sync with the rest…whatever you do, they keep dropping OP cards…a joke really…

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I say the exact opposite. Demon Hunter is no fun at all either to play or to play against. It is a simplistic, no-strategy class that is overtuned on purpose. Its ‘strategy’ (very loosely applied term) is to do nothing but draw cards, puke them out, and rely on the overtuned nature of the card design to (A) wipe the opponent board (B) draw more cards (C) build the DH’s board (D) hit the opponent’s face all at the same time in a massive tempo burst the opponent has no ability to interact with or counter in any way.

Opponents do not “defeat” a Demon Hunter. When a DH loses it is almost 100% because the DH simply failed to WIN in time. Almost every game against a DH is an exercise in watching the DH do like 10 things every turn but running out of gas while I stabilize. If the DH doesn’t think he can kill me then he just quits and I win. Yay that was really “fun”. Watching a DH puke through his deck to either (A) kill me before I do squat or (B) give up because he didn’t manage to kill me fast enough is some REALLY fun and interactive design. NOT! :slight_smile:

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Exactly, like I say balance can be fixe but not a bad concept of an entire class that mess up basic of the game.

  • DH only hero to have a turn one play every time
  • DH is the hero who will maximize the most unspent mana via the hero power even tho you dont make a deck that rely on your hero power.
  • DH will curve out pretty well each turn, much better than any other class because its a one mana ability.
  • DH just made balancing card base on your hero power a total nightmare since DH will ALWAYS be much much better at using it… ALWAYS.

Stuff like that are extremely hard to balance because it’s not just stats you try to balance… And it’s Blizzard that explain that when they HoF Genn card … and all the sudden it’s not a big problem because … $$$$$$$

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