So I just lost to a Druid using Mecha’thun and Poison Seeds. Now a minion replaces Mecha’thun. Wouldn’t this counter their deathrattle victory condition?
It annoys me because, when playing as Mage, and using Frost Lich Jaina, hero power kills an enemy, summon a water elemental. Now when this kills Sylvanas Windrunner, or Priests’ Obsidian Statue or Convincing Infiltrator, they take control or kill my water elemental. It wasn’t on the board when they died, yet its the same as Mecha’thun situation - its a simultaneous event.
No.
Poison Seeds is cast, destroying all minions, and triggering Deathrattles.
At this point, there are no cards in the deck, hand, or board, therefore Mecha’thun’s Deathrattle triggers successfully. Then Poison Seeds summons treants.
ok, so how does that differ from Jaina killing and summoning a water elemental?
Hero power kills the enemy, no minion on board to take control or kill, yet once summoned, it is lost from my side of the board. To me, its the same mechanic, yet different outcome.
As a general rule in Hearthstone, deaths are not resolved until an effect is fully resolved. For example, if you cast Ultimate Infestation and target a minion with it, that minion will not be removed from the battlefield and its deathrattle will not trigger until Ultimate Infestation finishes summoning a token, drawing cards, and giving you armor.
This also happens in the case of Frost Lich Jaina’s hero power: the hero power deals damage, checks if the target took lethal damage, and summons a water elemental all before the target minion’s deathrattle triggers.
There are certain spells and battlecries that are hard-coded exceptions to this, and specifically force a phase to trigger deathrattles and process minion deaths before fully resolving their own effects. One example of this is Defile - Defile is specifically intended as a counter to deathrattles that summon tokens, so every time the spell deals damage it processes deaths before dealing the next instance of damage.
Poison Seeds is another example of one of these exceptions. It was specifically and intentionally designed by the developers to process deathrattles before the treants are summoned.
So its a timing thing? The post no longer exists, but using Flamewaker against a Priest, they cast Potion of Madness or Shadow Madness to take the Flamewaker, and the spell to take the Flamewaker triggers its ability… the minion was on the other side of the board when cast…
@ Spectre
Thanks for the in depth answer, over my head but I will take your word for it. So another situation is when I have a full board, and I kill 1 of my own minions to have a new minion, I am left with 6 minions. A new minion does not replace the 7th minion.
7 minions > kill 1 minion > 6 minions on board > summon minion = NO
Thanks for both your answers, I think I am just frustrated.
Yes, because AFTER the spell was cast, Flamewaker was on the Priests side, and Flamewaker triggers AFTER a spell was cast. Flamewaker just goes “hey, a spell was just cast on this side of the board, time to trigger”.
So if I played a coin, then played Flamewaker - it doesn’t trigger.
Priest plays spell > takes posession > activate ability
I play spell > play Flamewaker > doesn’t activate
Both scenarios the Flamewaker was not on the players board, yet activates on 1 condition and not the other, and I can’t see the difference.
Priest plays spell > action - minion crosses the board takes posession > activate ability
I play spell > action - play a new card play Flamewaker > doesn’t activate
I view this as a type of “grandfather paradox” - you have to have the minion and then play a spell. The game goes “you played a spell to take the minion” so activate. “After you cast a spell” - you have to play a spell to get the minion. The minions owner has yet to cast a spell. At the time the Priest casts the spell, they have no ability in play, then they get a 2for1 ability.
All I can think of is my opponent going “Hey Flamewaker, I am about to play this card, cross the board and you get to use your ability”. When the Priest HAS to play the card before getting the minion.
Sorry, all I can think of is Archer “core concept” in not understanding the mechanics
The Priest does one action, you do two actions. Each action is resolved before you can do another action. So, as far as Flamewaker is concerned, you didn’t do that first action since he wasn’t on the board yet. With the Priest taking control, the Flamewaker crosses the board as the spell resolves (since that’s what the spell does). If the text of Flamewaker was “when you cast a spell” then it wouldn’t trigger, but he says “after you cast a spell” so it’s after the spell resolved.
Also, with your example, you assume things work retro-active. If you and your opponent have a board of 1/1’s and you kill them with your minions, your minions will not be revived if you play a Stormwind Champion, buffing your minions with +1/+1. Minions have no effect or are not affected by things that happened before they were on the board (save things that explicitely affect cards in hand, obviously).
I’m assuming you are using a spell that deals damage and summons a minion? This is consistent with what I said earlier - since most spells don’t process deaths until their effect finishes resolving, even if you deal lethal damage to a minion with a spell that minion won’t be removed from the board and will still take up space until after the spell attempts and fails to summon a minion. It would be helpful if you can specify what you are using to try and summon a minion.
@ SuddenReal
I think I am confused on the wording (“core concept”). Rogues’ Tess Greymane Battlecry: Replay every card from another class you’ve played this game verses Yogg-saron, Hopes End Battlecry: Cast a random spell for each spell you’ve cast this game. If Tess kills herself, her battlecry continues, Yogg kills himself, the battlecry ends, even on the 1st cast.
Thanks for continuing this - educational
@ Spectre
Sorry, this is with Jaina’s hero power, “Deal 1 damage. If this kills a minion, summon a 3/6 water elemental”. If I have 7 minions on the board, and kill 1 of my own with the hero power, I am left with 6 minions on the board. A new water elemental is not summoned.
This goes back to my OP.
Why are the deathrattles of Sylvanas, Obsidian Statue and Convincing Infiltrator (1of3) triggering on something that doesn’t exist? The treants don’t exist on Mecha’thun’s deathrattle, same as the water elementals don’t exist when those 3 types die. Likewise when I go from 7 to 6 minions by using my hero power, I do not go back to 7 minions, I killed my own minion for nothing and wasted my hero power damage.
Mecha’thun on board > cast poison seeds > trigger deathrattle > summon treant = Win
1of3 on board > use hero power to kill 1of3 > trigger deathrattle > summon water elemental = no
1of3 on board > use hero power to kill 1of3 > summon water elemental > trigger deathrattle = yes = lose my summoned water elemental
I don’t see the difference between the Druids situation and my hero power. Kill a deathrattle minion, then summon a minion after it dies. Druid wins with a minion on board??? Yet after I kill 1of3, their deathrattle takes my minion??? If 1of3 deathrattle triggers and then takes my minion, surely that means Mecha’thun deathrattle means a minion is on board and denies the victory condition.
Both instances require a deathrattle minion, it dying and a minion being summoned as a result. Yet the process leads to different outcomes
Poison seeds - destroy all minions and summon 2/2 treants to replace them
Jainas hero power - Deal 1 damage. If this kills a minion, summon a Water Elemental
They both use “summon”
Sylvanas Windrunner - Deathrattle: Take control of a random enemy minion
Obsidian Statue - Deathrattle: Destroy a random enemy minion.
Convincing Infiltrator - Deathrattle: Destroy a random enemy minion
Mecha’thun - Deathrattle: If you have no cards in your deck, hand, and battlefield, destroy the enemy hero
At the time of Mecha’thun’s death, no minions on board. Then a treant is summoned. Now for the 1of3, at their time of death, no minions on board, same as a Mecha’thun, then the water elemental is summoned, same as the treant. Everything is the same up until this point. Now Mecha’thun wins, while 1of3 destroy/take control of the summoned minion. HUH??? How does the deathrattle mechanic process change here?
Why is this not read as
At this point, there are no cards on the board, therefore 1of3 Deathrattle triggers successfully. Then Hero Power summons water elemental
Sorry for re-quoting the same part twice, but trying to explain it from different angles.
Poison Seeds needs to clear the board before it can summon the new minions, so it’s after the death trigger. Jaina’s Hero Power activates when the minion dies, but before the death trigger. It does say “kills a minion”, not “killed a minion”.
Sorry, what do you mean by “needs to clear the board”?
And how is “kills” and “killed” interpreted/timed differently?
I interpret poison seeds and the hero power as “if something dies, summon x to replace it” - with the summons happening at different places.
And isn’t poison seeds an added deathrattle? “summon 2/2 treants to replace them”. So Mecha’thun will now look like this -
deathrattle 1 = if you have no x, y or z kill the other hero
deathrattle 2 = summon a 2/2 z
A side test, if Mecha’thun had “reborn” would the deathrattle outcome change? A treant and a new Mecha’thun would be on the board. Or is summons and reborn a different mechanic as well? From Battlegrouds experience, the deathrattle summons takes priority over the reborn summons. But Khadgar will work with both “summons” and “reborn”
Again, when I have a full board and kill my own minion with hero power, nothing is summoned.
The nuances of the English language are killing me.
Deathrattles are processed after the minion is removed from the board. So if you have a full board and a minion dies that has “deathrattle: summon another minion”, the summoned minion will appear.
Most other effects that say “when a minion dies, do X” are processed while the minion still exists on the board but with lethal damage. So if the effect would summon a minion (like Jaina’s hero power), the board is still full and the extra minion can’t be summoned.
If it summoned the treants before the minions are cleared, the treants can’t replace them. A board with six minions would only spawn one treant because there’s only room for seven minions.
Kills is when an action kills a minion. Killed is after the phase resolved. Take Deathborne, for instance. If it said “Deal 2 damage to all minions. Summon a 2/2 Volatile Skeleton for each it kills.” you would get a Volatile Skeleton for each minion the spell killed, but since it’s worded “for each killed” you get a Volatile Skeleton for each minion that died in that phase, including minions that died because of a Deathrattle of any Volatile Skeletons already on the board.
No, because otherwise it would just say “give each minion a Deathrattle”.
Yes, because the Water Elemental is summoned when lethal damage is dealt, but before the death phase, so the original minion is still on the board with 0 health.
