We Have same meta again

PC General Discussion
23

This is why the CHARACTER of gameplay should be changed and experimented with and balance is just a small (important but still small) part of the greater whole

The biggest problem with D4 is that literally everything past leveling phase of the game follows the same pattern of:

  • Bet => Cardio => RNG/Reward

How does the Pit work ?

  • BET (Obsidian stones of whatever the name was)
  • Cardio (the gameplay)
  • RNG/Reward (the 4 loot pieces from the boss at the end and up to 4 rolls on your Glyph)

How do NMDs work ?

  • BET (“spend” a Sygil to open a portal)
  • Cardio (the run)
  • RNG/Reward (Boss loot and Obducite so that you RNG yet again on the vendor)

Over and over and over and over… THAT is what is bad with the game, balance is just an exaggerator (catalyst if you like) of the problem

The problem isn’t “META” although it can, the problem is the way the game behaves (the game that happens while playing the game, or the “2nd level” of gameplay if you like) while playing it for long…

That (endless) cycle of Bet=>Cardio=>Reward, THAT is what first of all exhausts, secondly if not exhausting then surely bores, and thirdly demoralizes people cause it’s the VERY SAME THING over and over and over and over and voer and over and… You know :man_facepalming:

THAT needs to change to something more interesting and/or cooler, perhaps no need to go super astray (at this point I frankly would)

Yes I know HTs are “always ON” but they’re kinda too intensive and “premium”, and more importantly Multiplayer-first type of content that I think kinda misses the mark… We need something similar, less-intensive, and most importantly SINGE-PLAYER first

At least DO SOMETHING that works in a different manner (at least one thing in the game that does not follow that same pattern of self/repetition)…

Having the “meta” stay in a stable phase/spot is just a small part of the equation (in fact if the other things worked perhaps would be a good thing cause finally balance would be semi/stable so Eternal players wouldn’t complain over and over)

The problem is the greater whole that the ENTIRE “endgame” (or “postgame” if you like) looks and feels like a 3-queue CASINO, and THAT is what IMO makes everything look and feel worse

24

Ive never understood why people do this. I guess they need to copy others because they cant do it on their own.

25

They dont take the time to learn the class/build. They want to clear 150 pits in 2 minutes on day 1.

26

Theory-crafting a build is incredibly complex. It’s why even the biggest theory-crafters get help from each other and the community. I don’t blame anyone for looking up a good build that fits their playstyle and their goals and then just running with it. Looking down on someone for doing that reeks of elitism.

That being said, people should get to know their character and learn about the build and what its synergies are. They will be better players for having done so, and it will help them customize that build to their liking a little more. For one thing, most guides don’t tell you how to spend all of your PP, and knowing your build is going to help you spend your extra points wisely.

3 Likes
27

They equate power and fun, that is always an issue (sadly not just players but I can safely say devs also)

If you equate power and fun => you’re part of the problem, like there’s no other way around this IMO

This is a failed work on the dev side, it is THEIR job to keep an eye of things and first of all keep things relatively in check, and secondly (arguably more important) imply intuition

But all things aside, there is a bigger problem (the one I mentioned above), people feel like “cheating” cause they know that “power is everything” and there’s nothing additional past the first Pit run and Boss run that the game can offer (just different loot and different numbers)

1 Like
28

Its true but at the same time the “meta” is going to outperform off-meta by 10,000%. Its not so much of a “choice” when there is that much of a delta. Just depends if you want to push or be efficient.

29

You could try creating your own builds. These lists are subject to change depending on when and if players discover new strategies. Meta builds often emerge when off-meta builds are researched and refined into dominant strategies.

30

In a complex system or systems, no amount of making them intuitive is going to completely replace player research. Knowing how certain passives interact with your spells, stats, and paragon nodes, etc, goes a long way towards understanding the game and being able to customize your build and/or get the most out of it.

31

I think they should aim to have every class have at least 4 “s-tier” builds every season rather than pushing people into 1-2 per class (if they have any at all) with the other builds (that at least have some item support) being A still.

32

I’m sorry but have to disagree

When you start playing a character you simply have no idea where your skill or build is gonna end at… You can’t know what kind of upgrades you may (or may not) get

The build making HAS to be intuitive, it’s that simple… If I’m playing Fire Sorc and getting everything for Fire, then I should be able to get in a (at least a decently) good spot… Same for Rogue with Poison or Cold or Barb with Berserk, e.t.c.

The OUTLIERS have to be nerfed or capped or reworked, and intuition should work, it is not my job to STUDY the game, it is my job to play it (yes learn some but mostly play)

If I get a lot of “assets” that contain the name “Fire” in it or “Damage” or both - then the build should work (except maybe a few bosses or semi-bosses that may be fire-themed but that’s an entirely different discussion)… If however my build “suddenly clicks” because I’ve double-dipped Fire with Vulnerable (by houdini multiplying somehow) then that’s also wrong

I should also be able to ADJUST things on the way when things start “screeching” and progression starts slowing down (ironically something that the game does NOT HAVE either - arguably at all)

If I have to “nap” at the Target Dummy and try things over and over and over until numbers “pop out” then something’s most definitely wrong

2 Likes
33

Theorycrafting is a part of any looter ARPG with talent/skill/passive choices. I’m not going to outright say you’re wrong, as I agree with a lot of what you say and there are some good points you make. Like, I agree intuition should be useful and valuable, but only halfway. After that if you want to min/max and play the hardest content you are going to need to try things out or pull out the spreadsheet. That’s the actual fun for a lot of players, myself included.

The unfortunate thing in my mind is that D4 isn’t particularly good at either portion. It’s obtuse enough that intuition isn’t reliable, and inconsistent enough that trying to work out the math isn’t where it should be, either.

2 Likes
34

Why would you think they have a team dedicated to balance? :rofl:

3 Likes
35

First of all this is not the topic of discussion, the discussion is why the “meta” stayed the same… My take on that was we can’t rely on “meta” to keep the game fresh, there has to be some other change/s to take care of that part overall

Now sure, every game has a “meta” but that “meta” is not every player guns for

But here’s the thing => we’re talking about viability here, just forget about min-maxing for a while, the very basis of balance in the game does not work i.e. VIABILITY does not work

What is the point of having Build X overperforming Build Y by a factor of… gee IDK a whole damn MILLION… ? :person_shrugging:

Fix that and nerf outliers (I mean buff weakest builds too but nerf the strong ones first)… THEN can later start designing the “intricacies” that can give an advantage or not (and if need be buff/nerf some monsters in the future)

It is entirely UNNACEPTABLE for us to do their part of their job, not for one day, not for an hour, I’d even argue not for a one SECOND… That is entirely unnaceptable

:100:

2 Likes
36

I replied to your comment which discounted an entire aspect of playing these games (based on the comment it was replying to) but brought up some good points at the same time. By your logic your comment was off-topic as well, because you were posting about how you feel builds should work and be approachable by players, which has nothing to do with

Moreover, it is relevant as min-maxing is literally what metas are about.
So look at yourself before you come at me.

Secondly,

You’re right. We should not be play-testing the game for them this far past the actual beta period. But figuring out how builds work is part of playing the game. The problem here is that the game is kind of broken.

But if you want straightforward build design that doesn’t require any depth of thought, there are plenty of action RPGs where all you have to worry about is hit points, defense, and offense, and which buttons to press and when. Maybe that would be more your speed.

37

It’s simpler than you might think: the meta remains stagnant largely because prominent streamers heavily influence what is considered “meta.” Even if a new, more effective build emerges that outperforms existing ones for a particular class, these tier lists often fail to reflect such discoveries promptly. Instead, they tend to reiterate the same established builds, overlooking innovative strategies that haven’t yet gained mainstream attention

38

Alright, let’s play a simple/mini game

New Sorc Aspect gives 50% [x ] bonus Frost damage, new Helm gives 7 shards and can “shotgun” foe ? (i.e. good against bosses or bigger elites from up close)

Question => will it be a strong build ?

One would think probably yes but in fact more likely to be a no… Why ?, cause Frost Sorc is/was relatively weak to begin with and what seems to be about at best 12x multiplier of damage => that roughly translates to 12 tiers in Pit

Unless people figure out some way that Frost > Vuln > Frost or some other feedback or double-dip like that => won’t work

That’s what you get in an “exponential” game :person_shrugging:

Heck one might argue that the ENTIRE game is broken completely, and the entire game revolves around finding hacks like that and/or glitches

1 Like
39

I’m interested to see 2 things:

  1. If this list is accurate during the first week
  2. If anything on this list survives the early balance pass

Only interested out of curiosity, as i’ll be fiddling with my own builds to clear the season journey. If i end up with a meta build, it’ll be purely by accident.

2 Likes
40

It really depends on whether the playerbase has an accurate understanding of how to build for damage. I have a strong suspicion that a large portion of players are operating under faulty or incomplete information, which leads to the widespread belief that only meta builds are viable.

From my experience, that simply isn’t true. I’ve primarily played off-meta builds — like Dash Rogue and Bulwark Druid — and have successfully min-maxed them to hit over a billion (and sometimes even a trillion) damage.

So, to answer your question: it largely depends on whether players continue to follow the loudest voices or start exploring and thinking for themselves.

Thats the only way to play imo :blush:

1 Like
41

This may be true while leveling, but once you hit max level the point is to find the upgrades you need for your build. It might take some people longer than others, but that’s how it’s done.

No matter how intuitive a game is, you’re going to have to study the game to a certain degree. That’s just part of the game. If the game were so simplistic and intuitive that you could create an S tier build without understanding stats, abilities, passives, etc, and how they interact with eachother, it wouldn’t be much of a game at all.

If you understand the mechanics, and are able to create a perfect synergy, that might not be noticable right away or easy to pick up for someone that isn’t looking, that’s a good thing. Learn your class, learn your build, and do some research.

While leveling, sure. That’s not how it’s supposed to work for end game. If you could beat endgame by just picking up random items, picking abilities and skills based on what you feel like at the moment, and still do it all, then it wouldn’t be much of a game at all.

2 Likes
42

If they are meta they should be kneecapped within the first month. If you look at our base damage anything over a few thousand damage should be cut. LOL