No it wouldnt spark joy in just anyone. Any sane person understands that an item with only 3 out of 5 stats is not a great item. Its a good start, but way to early for your joy.
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So an item with 3 perfect Greater Affixes would not produce “joy” in anyone…
I don’t know about you, but I feel good when an item have the correct affixes, even if they are not GA.
Maybe “joy” is not the right word, but I’m pretty sure that no sane person wouldn’t be excited by the possibility of a perfect item.
I don’t know… maybe all the posts complaining about Tempering and those supporting the complaints are all crazy… but it’s extremely unlikely. (Let’s be honest, this proves that you’re clearly wrong about that only a sane person would understand. You can’t call so many people insane without appearing insane yourself.)
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If you think an item with only 3 out of 5 stats is a great item, I have a beautiful bridge fo sale.
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It’s not a great item, it’s a great potential good item. It’s exciting to think about the possibilities. It’s a great moment because you are very close to getting what you want. You hype yourself up, and you build expectations.
It’s a moment in time when your mind can’t stop thinking about how good it would be if you were successful.
And it is the perfect time for “a disappointment” to destroy you.
It’s literally an “expectation versus reality” moment.
And it is you, and only you, who presses the button that decides everything.
(Obviously all this happens in just seconds or fractions of a second. It’s not an out-of-this-world experience, but it’s what happens in the heads of everyone who feels bad after failing a Tempering. I wrote it in this way to make it easy to put yourself in that person’s shoes… to evoke the same feeling)
I’m so turned off by it the only reason I used it was I felt I needed every scrap of power to push into WT4.
I mean I’m so lackadaisical about min-maxing that I just look at the fifth roll and say “whatever” and equip it anyway, but I get the feeling that isn’t how it’s supposed to work.
Also notably I haven’t found anything truly good yet, so all I’m doing is messing around with sacred items pretty much just because they are sacred items. Once I have a mess of ancestral items and am actually looking for certain stats, my guess is I won’t want to participate at all and if I do, it will be more “whatevers” from me.
I don’t produce dopamine (it’s inhibited by meds) so I literally feel nothing when I roll well. I feel bad when I roll bad, but then I say whatever and equip it anyway. RNG is not for me, I came up on 8 bit games that if they had RNG it was like “does the enemy drop 5 currency, one currency, a heart, or maybe three hearts” and every single other thing was deterministic.
I played wow for almost 16 years but I always went for the deterministic gear be it crafting or catchup. Any time I tried to do LFR where gear only has a chance to drop, I hated it. I might have the record for longest playing the game without ever engaging in RNG content other than the absolute bare minimum and even then three LFRs in a row with no item and I’d never do it again. I would do dungeons and like that purely for fun, I don’t recall ever actually using RNG to gear my character.
“Maybe D4 isn’t the game for you.” Yeah, yeah, but I paid 70 bucks for it and I still enjoy the deterministic parts of it like leveling and questing. I just don’t care all that much about my gear, in fact I’m not even sure I’d know what a truly good piece of gear looks like. I only read maxroll so that I can deterministically squeeze power out of my build without totally relying on gear. Other than that as long as it’s not full of resistance affixes it’s usually good enough for me. I do know what an upgrade looks like but the loot hunt is probably the least important part of the game for me, albeit I only play maybe two hours a week.
All of these solutions boil down to: “give us more power for less effort”. But as soon as they do that we get the complaint that there’s nothing to do in the game because the item chase has ended too early.
The current cost for resetting tempering on an item is finding another copy of the item. But solutions such as the one you linked ask for the cost to be reduced to finding a few rare items. Change it to unlimited and adjust the probabilities and costs appropriately (so it is power-neutral) and it simply becomes a frustrating tedium of sitting in front of the blacksmith trying over and over.
If you treat the system as one that exists to guarantee you a specific affix, then there will be more “feels bad” than “feels good” because you are treating the good outcome as the default. I think the large number of rerolls you currently get is one reason for this.
I have a suggestion here: Color-based tempering that attempts to shift some of the RNG back onto the drop without making drops themselves overly complicated. I think something along these lines would be a better solution than unlimited rerolls.
Of course, if you want to remove the “feels bad”, then you have to design the manuals so that the worst outcomes are still useful for the build that wants the best outcomes. If they did that, then they could make the very powerful affixes rarer (and make it clear that they are rare) so that people don’t assume those affixes are the default.
To answer your original question, yes it feels good to hit the temper you want. It feels good because I have had the experience of missing it. I’ve had several moments where a temper failed and I had to decide whether the item was still worth it. I ended up going with a 2-weapon setup specifically to allow me to get the weapon temper I need on at least one of them as I was leveling. I have kept items long past their item power level because the temper on them was good and I kept missing it on new gear. But getting that better item that then hits the tempers is an awesome moment.
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It’s a mindset issue. It’s like being devastated every time a scratch-off seems to be going well and then fails to win you $1M. The best solution is to smooth out the manuals, not to make it so that every scratch-off pays $1M.
The idea is fun. Bricking is not.
Could be made more fun with adding:
- keep prior roll
- add more durability based on GAs
- give player mechanism to reset durability (repair horadric Malus?)
If PTR players thought bricking would be fun, I don’t think they felt the pain since PTR progression is throw away. They didn’t fully comprehend what it means to brick 2 or 3 GA items.
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Options “3.X” are not mine.
Mine seeks a greater effort in exchange for not feeling bad while preserving the original mechanics for everyone who enjoys it.
Correct. We all know that. The point is that it doesn’t feel good. It’s as simple as that.
No, remember that what is proposed is an ADDITIONAL alternative method.
The idea is that if you can’t stand failing or losing the item, then you have an option.
An option that does not imply failure. A slow but safe option.
I agree, if you expect to fail, you feel good about succeeding, BUT very few assume that they will fail. And the reason is that you don’t want to fail. It’s hard to think that you’re going to fail.
Fair enough. That’s all I ask for.
YES. And it is very hard to convince someone to change their mindset. I know I can’t convince almost anyone who likes Tempering that it’s bad, and I know that almost no one who doesn’t enjoy it is going to stick around long enough to like it.
Option 2 in the post you linked suggests increasing the cost by 5x to 10x instead of costing a reroll and increasing it 20x to let you choose your affix. But the cost right now is 5 tempering rerolls per identical item drop. That’s the most important part of the cost. So increasing the negligible materials cost of tempering in exchange for not spending rerolls would be a dramatic power increase.
For it to be slower than finding more items with identical stats, you would have to require a material that is rarer than the item itself. I’m sure you could set a gold cost that would be that, but it would be in the 100s of millions, and even that would be trivialized by later in a season.
Short answer, yes. Still feel this way. It’s a 3 month- ish season. I am fine being at 80% or so max capability for now and chasing things for the remainder of the season.
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It also feels bad to die, to lose cinders, to have to fight a boss fight over because you died. Removing all feels-bad moments from the game shouldn’t be a design goal. The ability to fail is what makes it fun to succeed.
Yes, it is just an example, I would not complain if it is greater.
Nobody complained in the thread so I thought it was clear. I’ll edit it so it doesn’t create confusion.
And I’m completely fine with that.
My bad luck for sure will makes me take much longer than usual anyway.
I prefer not to risk it.
If you feel lucky, well… no one would stop you from taking the fast route.
And remind me how many people complain about the one-shot Boss mechanics… yes, a few…
The problem is that Tempering feels like a disconnect in HC. It’s not that you’re a bad player, it’s that your bad luck or the game decided that you had to fail.
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Jury is still out for me. At first it didn’t feel so good and I basically did the bare minimum to get something on my gear to get to masterworking.
But now that I’m pushing higher pit levels and trying to squeeze out the extra DPS having to I’m looking at what tempering I can change. The difference is now 2 weeks into the season I have multiple backups of gear in my stash so as I’m working on those tempering recipes bricking an item doesn’t feel as bad when I have 5 more viable items next in line.
So where I’m starting to lean towards is bricking is annoying but still superior to the old system where I’d go for a month and not get that 3/4 item I wanted.
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I complained in the thread 
right here
I think the only way to fix this is to make the best rolls in tempering very rare, so that no one can view them as the default. That only works if you make the other rolls worth more than 0, but I think that would be a better way to design the manuals anyway. Not “manual of random fire skills” but “manual of incinerate” & “manual of fireball” & “manual of meteor”, etc.
You didn’t comment on my suggestion about color-coding the temper affixes and then having items drop with a colored slot, so that you could choose to add the temper of that color from whichever manual. I think this (+the rarities) would solve the mindset problem by shifting more of the RNG to the item drop.
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oh… my bad. I think your suggestion distracted me.
They will always see the best option as the default one, since it is the one they are looking to obtain. If the path is not clear, the easier it will be for them to create their own imaginary path.
For example, many imagine probabilities as something absolute, when it is just a trend.
People always complain that something is buggy or impossible instead of admitting that they are unlucky. In their minds, one in 10 is one after 9.
I hadn’t read it, so I prefer not to comment.
I just looked at it and I think it has a problem (if I understand correctly).
In normal situation, you could find a normal item with the stats you want and then add the tempering. With the new system you propose, that item could have the wrong tempering, so you would be significantly increasing the difficulty of finding a good item.
The difficulty may increase so much that it forces the drop of items to increase in order to maintain a healthy balance, regressing the game to its previous point. I don’t know, we would have to analyze the math.
I was speaking about 3GA items. Which is the max. You can only find MAX 3GA stat items. Which again I still haven’t found a single one and i’m lvl 100 since a while.
Again here too.
There isn’t any item in existence which has more Greater Affixes than 3. Because 3 is the max base affix on an ancestral item, thus only 3 can get a “greater affix roll”
Which is basically the pinacle of items you can find if those affixes are not only GAs, but also the type of affixes you need.
Do you even play the game?
And you see that’s the issue i was talking about all along which you clearly missed or ignored deliberately. That even finding the (as MFPF said
[quote=“MFPF-1376, post:29, topic:165717”]
It’s not a great item, it’s a great potential good item
[/quote] ) pinacle of potential items, it isn’t pure joy, because if you are tempering it and you can’t get the 2 desired bonus affixes on it which you need, a potentially godlike item becomes salvage material. And that should never happen in an ARPG
This has absolutely been my experience this season. Feels truly amazing to finally get the tempers you want, especially if the item has 1-2 GA you want. It wouldn’t feel this way if tempers were unlimited, I would just feel angry and frustrated that I spent so much gold to finally hit the tempers, or perhaps just bored since I know the outcome already, it would just be a question of grinding.
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In my system, if you didn’t want the temper with the color of the slot, you could just roll exactly the same way you do now. So it is just adding the ability to guarantee a specific affix when the item rolls with that color in one of its slots. You’d still have to reroll and potentially press your luck to get that affix at a high value, but you could make sure you had the right type of affix by finding an item with the right color slot.
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to be fair, throughout all the pieces I’ve tempered, most of the time I land on the stats I needed, it might not be a high roll but usually you would get both tempered stats. I didn’t bother with 2GAs-3GAs pieces tho so it’s usually not as painful to fail on 1 GA equipment.