The question of an end game

PC General Discussion
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I was just sitting around thinking about games in general and had a little epiphany about this one.

In other games, such as MMOs, an end game exists in some form. Usually, this end game requires one to gear up before partaking. In some games, there are tiers one must work through, gaining upgrades along the way. But there’s always the expectation of gearing up beforehand.

In other games, the end game is gearing up with randomly found items, with little to nothing to do once a player completes their character. But, if they change this to add a real end game, then some people will just gear up too quickly, smash open world content, and skip the end game.

This poses a conflict of interest between the loot grind and feasibly preparing for an end game.

However, with this iteration of Diablo, there’s the promise of an end game, one that never fully materializes. Now, I got to thinking about this. If they introduce a true end game, they need to rework the way drop are handed out so that those who want to participate can gear up in a reasonably efficient manner.

But this invalidates the underlying principle behind the loot grind built in to the Diablo franchise. I recall making a post, back in beta, that I thought the mmo-lite direction might not be the smartest move. One cannot serve two masters. There’s an old saying, “you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.”

I have no solution. I was only free associating. However, this might explain why Blizzard seems reluctant to introduce any real end game here.

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Nah, no matters fast or slow, once you full gear up, there´s nothing to do with such additional power… push PIT is the only thing which is pointless because it gives you nothing.

The main problem… we are doing the same things for 1.5 years now.
There are no changes or new contents along the time.
Seasonal contents are ridiculous small and simple.
Everything turns boring

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Here’s the deal gud sir:

To the D4 Devs T1 is “endgame”. Therefore the same items drop here as in the most difficult objectives in the game.

So after you put your build together from T1 or whatever, the only thing left to do is push as high as you can in the Pit, or play SC and spam the DC in hopes you will complete it’s cosmetic sets.

There is no leaderboard, and the game is hilariously imbalanced so that’s a no starter, and the Pit is boring.

There is no Pinnacle bosses after the Devs tried with Lilith at the games launch, and had to listen to the same “Bads” that can’t beat the first Act boss of other games.

So here we are bored with this offering of RMT sites and dupes galore.

GGG

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I’m not sure the intent of my post was clear. What WE think of as end game, and what the devs think of as end game is clearly different. We know that already.

My thoughts were about why they don’t add anything more, like raid tiers, class-set dungeons, etc. And the reason I think they don’t (leaving us bored) is because to do that, they’d have to re-evaluate the loot grind as it is now. Like it is, many wouldn’t see the end game we want, whatever that is. Instead, they pass off T1-4 AS end game when they know it could be more.

BTW, I quit playing D4 almost two weeks ago. It was just a thought.

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Diablo 4 has chosen ‘ongoing game’ as one of its subgenres, so don’t expect an endgame.

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That doesn’t matter. WoW is an ongoing game and they add end game every expansion after a few patches. That’s not an excuse.

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Yah I feel you.

The Devs made the decision to cater the game to more casual gamers than those that were typically found playing repetitive grind games in the past is all.

I guess that’s where the money is. And that’s what the Devs want more than anything.
Current Gen gamers like this kinda stuff.

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the same goes for D4, it has its seasonal journey from start to end as well.

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Not even casual gamers, is for extremely casual players. You just need reach T1, that even a casual could get easily in one week without effort

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Have you seen the XP curve? Similar idea to D2, but even more aggressive. Perfect triple masterworked 4GA mythics aren’t exactly falling off the tree either.

Despite the fact no one can define what a ‘casual’ even is, those people sure take a lot of the blame around here.

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But that is not part of a XP Curve, that is just gacha grind without pity system

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ITs been a year my GUY this game wont ever have a real end game, not when the whole team thinks end game is T1.

There is another game coming with an actual end game though!

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For many games, end game are those repetitive and often boring activities to grind your gear.

Many good PVE game does not have end game activities, players just replay the campaign over and over with different builds. Those campaign need to be very well designed with good lore and branch quest. Difficult pinnacle boss with interesting mechanic for player to interact with. This will let player experience play through with new excitement.

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Honestly, there is only so much a dev team can do with an ARPG in terms of content pushing. There are players in POE 2 that have already reached the end and are voicing their concerns about end game.

ARPG’s are in a weird spot in terms of end game material. My only advice would be to make certain items (not all) super rare like they were in D2. This will keep players grinding in hopes to find it one day. Otherwise, regular content will always be beaten fairly quickly and players will reach max power eventually.

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Not necessarily items. I think the game could have mythical runes, mythical manuals (with GA in an affix). Something to pursue that makes your character extremely strong. Other than that, it’s just looking for 3 GA items that will never be found and don’t even make a difference.

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I know most here don’t want to admit it, but they are missing the chase. Mmo’s raids are done frequently to obtain the best gear in the game, same with d2 you did hell boss runs in hopes of obtaining that one insane piece or a rune. Even if they added some elaborate end game, without chase items it will fail because what’s the point in doing it.

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Best end game right now is making your own build using logic from the meta but not strictly following it. That way even tho you are not performing at all the max potential you are forging new ways to build. This way when patches and new seasons come out you are ahead of the game.

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Glad you agree, and are well attuned at understanding what people are suggesting…

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If they introduce a true end game, they need to rework the way drop are handed out so that those who want to participate can gear up in a reasonably efficient manner.

This is a discussion that the community really needs to have. I think of all the issues that any gaming community has this idea that there is a “reasonably efficient manner” that is centrally understood is the most toxic. Almost all of the complaints made by most people have this vague, not universal, very open interpretation problem that cannot be surmounted by just thinking about it.

You ask some people what a reasonable amount of time or efficiency is and you’ll get answers that balk in the face of others. It’s confusing and creates nothing but controversy. For example in a game where you can buy your gear on the market the random drop system is majorly outsourced to the playerbase and the prices are arbitrary because gold becomes arbitrary due to the outsourcing of the very thing core to the game, so when you ask someone who uses that system about time or efficiency it’s going to be likely significantly more geared towards acquisition through immediate means (faster) meanwhile SSF players who enjoy the journey will wonder what in the hell you’re on about and complain the game is too fast.

The only thing you could do to solve this is to provide a slider that just lets players pick for themselves how quickly they want things. If this weren’t a quasi-MMO that would be fricken amazing but it is so that’s not an option. Or they could remove trading instead and use the slider and just make it all SSF.

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Naturally, everyone will have differing opinions. That is definitely part of the problem. For argument’s sake, I would define this as “in time to enjoy end game content.” Now, what that actually means, depends on the game.

In the case of an MMO, it usually means doing dungeons enough times to get entry level gear. As most MMOs include targeted drop, this means a handful of runs per dungeon. The drop rates are much higher in such games.

In the case of a loot grind game, some players may never see a given piece. If that piece (or stat, or whatever) is critical to a build, that player is grounded and cannot compete.

I’ve personally run D4 seasons where I simply never got what I wanted. Bad? Not necessarily. Blizzard designed this game with that in mind: some people not being lucky. It’s a game of gambling. But therein lies the rub.

I knew from the time this game was announced as a strange hybrid between an mmo and a dungeon crawler that systemic problems would arise.