The difference between Chris Wilson (POE) and Rod Ferguson (D4) when it comes to "looking at the data"

PC General Discussion
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It’s not a vocal minority. Just more absolute evidence of why Diablo 4 does not understand what players really want.

Data driven metrics for making games becomes soulless, focused grouped, with no artistic vision just trying to sell as many copies as possible and not actually make a great game for an intended audience. Instead just work out what keeps players being addicted to clicking the button.

I literally wrote a post about it right here 9 days ago before this terrible interview where we were told we’re the “vocal minority”.

Here’s Chris Wilson. And I guess I have to clarify now, not the Blizzard one they got from another timeline in response to the poe2 trailer (not a super corp move at all, I kid :slight_smile: ), the beloved Chris Wilson we all know who made poe and has roundtable discussions at exilecon with legendary arpg creators in the space like David Brevik.

This is how Chris Wilson feels about “data” that “actually tells you what’s going on”. Rod Ferguson’s words not mine. Never heard corpo talk like that before ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Timestamped.

Here’s Rod talking about the same stuff. Timestamped.

The difference is night and day. I know who’s arpg philosophy I believe in.

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chris laughing from all the new arrivals d4 sent over to poe.

might buy another black lotus to celebrate

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Rod did say that they’re (the vocal minority) important. The question from the interviewer was trying to lead to a straight dismissal in all honesty. Trying to be fair here… that was a very “lead” question.

I do 100% believe Chris Wilson (and Crate - forgot who is the head there) are more attached to their IPs than Rod is to Diablo.

Edit:
Also, new expansion for Grim Dawn announced jumps up and down in joy

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I just saw that there was a new expansion coming! This is great news!

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Look up the bear rolling.

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Considering this is how PoE1 looks right now and that all those cosmetics will instantly transfer to PoE2, i wouldn’t say artistic integrity or vision. A least not one that doesn’t involve visual vomit MTX Reddit - Dive into anything

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The comments about “candy” and “medicine” are so patronising. Are we children?

And it’s another bald faced corpo lie the medicine isn’t even coming till season 2 but apparently Rod Ferguson considers that the “candy”.

That’s likely not even the bare minimum we expected.

Seasons worth of medicine to come in a lot of peoples minds dungeons, tree of whispers, end game activities aren’t even complete yet.

Tree of whispers very clearly needs a big pass is barely used and I bet even the “data” reflects that.

Dungeons feel terrible to grind they should also get a big pass and made more unique.

And there’s nothing to do past lvl 80 apart from 1 single tier 100 run and killing uber Lilith. That’s it.

We were lied to and told the game had a huge focus on end game and yet there are literally 2 activities that are over and pointless to do any more after 1 successful run.

Compare that to just ONE of the endgame activities in POE MAPS. Then you have delve, bossing, heist and more! There’s nothing that even comes close to maps in D4.

The medicine candy comments are ridiculous and a lie. As well as the other biggest arpg dev in the space completely disagreeing that data driven metrics create good games. Instead pointing out that A B testing things to see what keeps people playing is designing a game under the principles that mobile gaming uses. Introducing dark patterns and addictive gameplay mechanics designed to psychologically tap into the human brain and keep you clicking the button.

I think this is part of the problem. We used to have fun when pushing ourselves to complete something but now gaming companies are rewiring our brains to only feel rewarded when the thing we want is just a small step in front of us, and constantly just making you want to click one more time. Instead of planning, strategizing, practicing skill based mechanics with a high skill ceiling giving you thousands of hours of fun and learning, and in turn having more than a surface level connection with the game and much stronger bond than just the feeling to keep clicking.

We should ask for and play harder games that really test our critical thinking and give us deeper connection with the game. Whilst also not feeling addicted and being able to disengage or engage because we want to and just love the game.

Not A B tested focus grouped data driven metrics based on addictive mobile gaming.

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Well Chris Wilson started GGG because of the total inaction by blizzard on the diablo franchise, and was basically gifted by blizzard the ARPG crowd with how they did D3, and now D4. All the founders were massive D2 nerds.

POE and D3/D4 show exactly the difference between hiring generic california game devs and a game being made by passionate fans.

You can tell which game is made by ARPG fans for ARPG fans, and which one is designed to sell boxes and thats about it.

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And how do they feel about the twitch “data” going from 150k viewers to 1-5k.

And Diablo 4 just went on sale. Interesting to see them feeling the need to drop the price just a couple of months after launch. I think if you checked the data on that not many AAA games drop their price this quick.

How about that.

Not surprisingly another corpo move is Blizzard make sure they share very little of their data but love to cite it to prove us wrong in this instance.

We won’t ever get to see it though.

Guess we’ll just go off the actual evidence we can see and it’s not looking good or lining up with Blizzards corpo speak.

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Depending on how important investors feel it is they might be pressured into sharing that type of data on earnings calls - that use to be a big/constant question for WoW.

So we may eventually know some of the data

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Will be interesting to see how much this lines up with their narrative.

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You certainly can do that, but it’s not required. You can actually use metrics to determine what players enjoy without making every decision purely about maximizing money. If your player retention strategy wants players to stick with the game for years and is built around a strict policy of not allowing pay-for-power, then what the metrics can tell you is mostly about how people who play the game are playing the game and when they are stopping and when they are quitting and when they are taking breaks.

So basically, the decision to use metrics to try to please a broader fan base does not require you to prioritize the people who buy extra cosmetics over the people who just enjoy the game. That’s a separate decision that can be made regardless of whether you use metrics or gut feelings to refine your game.

So what he’s saying is, “I don’t care if my game
is niche as long as it pays the bills,” which is great for players who like the same things he does from their game. It’s useless to anyone who wants something different because he just tells them to go play someone else’s game.

It’s also useless to a big budget company that has to make a lot more money off their games, but players don’t care about that part, and rightfully so.

Still, his games would be better if he used metrics to figure out what his actual players (or potential players) want from the game.

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Well said. Everytime the dev’s talk about designing this game around data I cringe a little. Data is a small part of the picture. It should be wielded like a scalpel to make fine tune adjustments. Not a cudgel to game design.

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It always comes down to the talent. You can tell there is no love for this product and no passion.

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To be fair, the interviewer is the one that called it a “vocal minority”. He knows exactly how many players have left, he gets numbers at least weekly. If not more often.

The interviewer really came off as anti-gamer. The devs really come off as anti-fun. Full on kiss/curse philosophy does not belong in this franchise.

They just want players to “take their medicine” and “eat a salad” before getting to the fun of the game. In other words you have to pay with time in game on chores for their MUAs, if you expect to access any “sugar”, or fun content.

Seriously terrible leadership philosophy, and I served in the military and saw some really poor leaders. He’s the kinda guy that thinks “mandatory fun days” are a great thing for morale.

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My point is, legendary game devs like Hideo Kojima (MGS), Hidetaka Miyazaki (DS, ER, AC6), Chris Wilson (POE), David Brevik (D2), Ed Boon (MK) do not need data to show them how to make a great game. And I expected the same treatment for Diablo. Perhaps Todd Howard will surprise us tomorrow and show us after F4 being kinda mid and F76 being terrible, that Bethesda still know what we were all dreaming of in our heads for the next big Bethesda games.

They actually love games and understand what’s possible in game engines. What players really want from a sequel IE: being able to see into the mind of the player, because they are one, and imagine a minimum viable product that actually reaches the expectation of a sequel in that players mind. MGS5 technical improvements to the game engine were really impressive. I think this is one of the most impressive things about game devs like this.

Not only are they able to know what kind of content players want, how much, and when the quality/basically upgrading tech and game engine requirements are needed to reach these expectations. As well as the feeling, tone and aesthetic choices of the game. Being able to bring this altogether because the end product is a game they themselves actually want to play.

Unapologetic to players that don’t agree with their vision. This is what makes truly great games and what I’m after. Larian Studious just proved themselves big time and I think again this is largely due to a real artistic director at the top of all the decision making, that knows how to surround themselves with opinions and smart people they trust. When to listen to the players. But ultimately still have a true vision for what they set out to create. What gap they were trying to fill in the minds eye of gamers that are looking for those really big new experiences.

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Rod all day every day! POE guy doesn’t have any hair. I can’t trust him. Why did his hair abandon him?

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Exactly, no passion whatsoever. Some of them didn’t even like the game and it shows.

Here’s a quote:

“I just went to work every day and got angry,” said a female former Blizzard Albany employee. “Either because the tools were slow or I didn’t like the game that much, to be totally honest with you. The quality of life to actually enjoy what I’m working on and see a path forward with it was way too important to stick around for the equity.”

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Vocal minority is BS, this game sucks at nearly everything and mediocre at the rest. they know it and don’t care because we were all stupid enough to not refund after the beta.

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I wish I had seen that Washington Post article before I bought d4. I probably would have never bought it. That article is really telling and a great window into how d4 was mismanaged. More people need to read it.

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