The destined goal for a good arpg is that you should feel like a god and fulfill your power fantasy

PC General Discussion
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It is only a matter of how soon you would feel that way when comparing to different ARPGs on the market.

But, the ultimate goal, at end game is that you fulfill whatever power fantasy it is that you have through gear, through progression , through build. And then you feel like a god blasting hordes and hordes of either demon, or monsters alike.

There are no ARPG out there which will give you god like power, gear, progression as soon as you finish your character creation. Regardless of how hard, how easy , how slow, how fast the developer makes their game, there is always will be work required from the player to build your character to the god like power. Addition of RNG, and different system in place are the tools you need to make that journey possible.

I have done some extensive video study on a few big hit ARPGs on the market, of course includes D4. At end game, that has been the goal for all the developers for their players. Now, the main difference being, the journey. How do you get there, how fast, how slow , how much friction etc etc…

I think the difference in the journey is enough to distinguish between different ARPG titles on the market today, and that ultimately is a good thing. Because, that will make it so that different player base will be able to find a right game for them, and there is no fighting, or argument needed.

Everyone play game differently, have different opinion on what is fun, the way we enjoy game is different.

I think it is wise that different developers all share the same end game vision - that is to allow their player to feel like a god. But , approach this destination with variations. There is no better or worse. It is a matter if if this is your cup of tea, or not.

There is no point trying to argue this is too fast, this is too slow, this is too hard, this is too easy… it doesn’t matter. Because in the end, you will achieve that power fantasy of yours regardless of which ARPG you decide to pursue.

Just enjoy because, having options is a good thing =)

Thanks for the read.

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I agree with you. I think one of the main issues people have had, and still have with D4 would be that the direction the devs wanted to take this game wasn’t always clear. Even when the expansion hit it seemed like they reverted changes people genuinely enjoyed during S5.

The game has just lacked focus on getting us to that power fantasy, and then what to do with that power fantasy once you’ve reached it. It’s like watching a company build their very first ARPG, but that’s the problem, they have 3 games under their belt that are within the same genre.

LE is a good example of a studios first ARPG. It has a good core, it’s just lacking depth. People expected more out of D4 and obviously are disappointed and voice their opinion about it daily.

Now the issue, as pointed out by yourself is players attacking each other for a difference of opinion. There’s nothing wrong with people voicing their opinions on here, whether you love or hate the game. However there is a clear lack of respect for opinions from all sides.

For some reason some people (not all) believe if you aren’t for/against D4/Blizzard you’re the enemy. Which just isn’t true. We all want a better game in general, I think everyone can agree to that. However we’re all human beings, yes including the devs.

It’s ok to hate the game, it’s ok to love the game, it’s also ok to love and hate other games. Just because someone doesn’t agree with your opinion doesn’t make them the enemy. There’s common ground here, and no we’re not all going to see eye to eye.

Would just be nice to see a little more respect going around is all. From everyone, including myself.

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That is right. Every game has problems, I mean nothing in life is perfect. I would go as far as say if you ask 10 random people on the street of what each of them think perfect means, you will get 10 different answers, same as if you ask what is fun …

Discussing the issue of the game is absolutely welcomed, but that would be a whole different discussion on itself. The goal and destination should not change, that is let the player build their character, through the tools , RNG available to them, and in end game, the reward is you get to feel super powerful, and you feel good about it.

Some players feel like the journey to get to god like state is too shallow, too simple, for their liking. No problem, valid points, there are other game on market today to hopefully make that craving possible.

Some players may feel too exhausted, too frustrated or just not having fun when playing some other games on the market. No problem, valid points, there is D4 available that these players will know to return .

I think it will be a natural flow in each directions as time pass by.

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I dunno. Been playing Diablo Likes since almost 30 years now.

I do Not get the Impression you are supposed to feel Like a god.

The very least arpg Go there and those WHO do need months of Farming or exzessive twinking.

The Moment you are a god you are basicly done. So beeing a god IS more Like a Goal to reach instead of a gameplay system.

Most Diablo Likes also have a DARK and Grim lore and beeing godlike IS a heavy contrast to a DARK and Grim world.

I am Not saying nö Diablo Like offers what you Claim. But IT IS definatly Not the Norm.

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I like the power of SB wipe the Pit 150, I also like the insane mobility of Sorcerers when I keep TP through the walls of dungeon full of rooms. This kind of feeling is not available in the new Dodge roll simulator game I think.

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Great post Iggy. I’ve said it many times. We need to stop fighting each other. Although I am guilty of it to on occasion.

As for the post… I don’t agree. We are a hero, not a god. If we were a god then we would be a god not a hero. Mortals are not gods.

Sure, we should get to the point where deleting trash mobs is a thing, I don’t think we should ever get to a point where we are deleting bosses and sub bosses and prime evils and gods. Even trash should take some effort. Holding down button while everything on the screen is deleted is not gaming to me. Thats the same as those quicktime event games where you press a button then just watch a cutscene for 90% of the play.

I’ll go a little extra and say class balance for me is a big deal. Some dont care. Others love the swing meta. I do not. I want to play what I want to play when I want to play it. It should feel every bit as good as anything else. I dont expect perfect balance but the gaps are too huge. Feeling like “a god” on one build and feeling like a peasant on another, to me is a big problem.

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I disagree here. They have “classic” arpg game experience. But D4 tries to be a totaly different thing and that is one of the issue.

And since i love analogies here is one.

Imagine you own a sportscar manufactory and you have enployees with lots of experience and skill.

You released 3 very succesful sportscars. The problem. You get greedy. You think to yourself

" hm the sportscar sells good but only a small minority of people is interested in it" i want to sell to everybody.

So now you tell your engineer to creat a new car. It is supposed to be fast. Look like a sportscar. But it has to be family friendly with lots of room. It has to be fast and agile. But it has to be economical with low fuel need. It has to be attractiv for your old clientel of rich upperclass men but it has to be cheap as well.

It has to be ALL these things. And obviously many of these things contradict themself. And the engineer will tell you that it does. But you do not care. You just see the $$$.

So either your employees do it or they can go f themself and you look for people who do. So they start working and while they do so they tell you time and time again it is impossible. The product will be very lackluster. And your high qualidierd experienced engineers in leading position will slowly leave the company 1 by 1 and you have to get new much less experienced people completing a half finished car where they have no idea about the initial context.

If you thing that under any circumtsance there will ever be a proper working car coming from that situation you probably also believe santa clause is real.

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When the “stat squish” and “legacy” tag to Eternal gear and mythics was discovered (not announced by Blizz…strange) is when I first decided to post on these forums. To complain yes, also to warn of the road they were traveling down. I have played my share of games, no need to list but was never a forum poster per say, I would look for info but never interact.
I decided to post here that first time because the children (my nephews and niece) thay i often play with…and allow to play my toon (much more fun than theirs) were really kinda pissed off because they “helped” me get all my gear.

I was met/welcomed? by a level of toxic BS that was …quite funny to be honest yet unsettleing. I ofcourse took the bait a little to see how far/bad it would get and even tried to “educate” some as to how commuication should work…lol…yea…that didn’t work.

So I changed my whole perspective on here and simply post on stuff I find interesting, etc.
Shortly after S6/VoH dropped, instead of being upset or what not I spoke with the kids and explained…“One day, when you are older…blah, blah…you will have whats called disposable income and get to choose what you apend it on”…you get the point.

This game along with the expansion is/was (full price) $150? I know that is seen as alot/little differently by peeps…but her in America (Miami, FL) that is dinner and a movie.
One night/date…

I find it very interesting how/why so many are simply crazy of this video game. Please don’t hit me back with sport fandom, etc…thats different for many reason including a lack options unlike MILLIONS of video games to choose from.

It is so damn clear that the devs CARE NOT about these forums…so all of this is just a time sink. Plain and simple…and i will take part due to boredom 8p

Cheers

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sure i mean at some point that is why we level, and get more powerful, it is a power fantasy when we grow our class, spells and equip magical gear that gives us this power.

Idk i like the game talisman and feeling like that kind of adventurer. for most of the game, growing stronger, but not a god. :man_shrugging:

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Once content becomes trivial, it becomes boring.

You can still feel godlike without removing all difficulty…

The key here is god-LIKE, not an actual god that never dies or faces a challenge

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But most of the game is by its very design - trivial. Pit, Hordes and UC all is loot less monsters on a timer. Its something you just want over - as there is no story, no plot nor any reason to mow them down, except the chest in the end. And the goal is to be able to those activities as fast as possible.

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Never felt like a god in D2, but enjoed playing that. Same goes for titan quest, poe etc.

That very second I am feeling my class is finished I am instantly loosing interest.

That is why D3 is game for weekend.

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The goal should be to make it enjoyable to play.

When something has no challenge, it gives you no sense of accomplishment when you beat it.

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but “enjoyable” will be different pr player. But I agree, if too easy for too long , it becomes boring. However, getting nothing and all progression eaten by gambling turned out to be even worse that just being too easy. (for me)

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Actually in the story did they not hint at us being Nephalim but in a weakened state?
We are not a regular human. PLus when Mephisto intervenes in the beginning to save us, we do not no how much he helps us as in giving us power…

@OP all games are about attaining power to overcome challenge. Nowhere is it stated that it needs to be godlike power…except maybe Dynasty Warriors, just that there is A PATH to being more powerful than your enemies.

I would argue that D4 does hand it to you the moment you equip your first skill just due to the power difference between the player and the environment. This balance was much better at launch.

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They want to sell you that fantasy one piece at a time…

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Many argument no challenge when you become a god in a game is boring.

I think become Elon Musk or Donald Trump is boring, as there is no challenge.

God should not exist, as he must has self destructed long ago as he lives a boring life.

If any multi billionaires tell you he lives a boring life, he is just try to scam you :laughing:

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Money doesn’t make you a god.

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I disagree with this but I think the reasoning here is not bad. It’s one method of playing these games but it doesn’t capture the essence of the game itself. Becoming “a god” that blows up the screen is all fine and good but it’s really more about the shaping of that deity in your image. Looking at the S6 Spiritborn issue what was really disturbing to the playerbase was not that they did not have access to the power, they did, anyone could make one if they wished, but that it disrupted the ability to choose how one attains that power. It’s a violation of the right to the image.

I pose this because this part is also important and I agree with it 100%:

The key here is that when we talk about the journey we need to talk about the two main components of any game: Deterministic and Non-Deterministic Dimensions. Deterministic dimensions are those which are simply set values; for instance certain elements on gear in D4 are always the same such as equipping an axe will always increase DoT as it’s inherent affix. Non-deterministic is the opposite and just things that are either randomized or pseudo-randomized such as gear drops and their affix rolls on those drops.

Iso-ARPGs specifically run heavily towards player agency (“in my image”) with the barrier being gear assembly (ND) based on given knowledge (D) which often comes in the form of information from the game itself, i.e. the rules of how a DoT works or the math of a specific attack. In this case because Agency = Deterministic as a route the goal of the game is simply to see if your idea is viable given the condition that you are not guaranteed the stars will align in your favor. That it is all. It does not seem like much of a difference but in most games it’s the inverse; the game offers some challenge and your goal is to overcome that challenge, period, so you get a final boss and you must have all the skill and gear to kill it. Easy. In IARPGs the final boss is a vector to an outcome, i.e. he drops Big Shiny which changes your build, so killing him is not a feat of the game (though it does require a certain level of DPS etc.) itself but instead a part of the journey of the game.

This is where this bit gets contested:

The problem is, as I alluded to before, the nature of what the goal is relative to the mechanics working against it. IARPGs work under ND elements as aggressor to the player agency, the D element in this case, so there is such a thing as too fast, too slow, too hard, too easy, etc. because Agency is only valid under a system deemed honest or, said another way, the player can only play a build with any form of expectation of success if all elements required are transparent to a meaningful degree.

So what this means is that if the game contains too little ND it becomes too fast; you can count on getting Big Shiny at place X and do so quickly, which is usually all you need but you can be a perfectionist if you wish about it for Big Shiny+ (so a 4 GA version in Diablo 4) but that’s more of an ambition than a requirement. Games can also be too slow if they have too much antagonistic ND or even destructive ND where you have a low chance to get an item and then without some protection charm will have a high chance to break the item and lose it forever. Too hard and too easy are also relationships to Deterministic elements, S6 Spiritborn for instance was “too easy”, it didn’t really matter what you did as long as you picked up 3 items so the stars were extremely easy to align meanwhile other classes were, relatively speaking anyway, “too hard” for the inverse reasoning in that the stars had to align and the moon had to be high and the sun in eclipse to do even a fraction of the output.

All this to say I agree with your general view of the outcomes but coming to an IARPG at the angle of Player Agency without realizing what is necessary for PA to work won’t work. There really does need to be a tangible balance between the D and the ND in these games and in games where they aren’t in balance things do go wrong for PA. Some builds aren’t viable (a violation of D, where you are given the skill by the developers but it is effectively useless and shouldn’t have even been given) while others are the obvious choice, etc.

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Any A-RPG that makes the player godlike at any point, is bad. Should never happen.
Their power fantasy should be going from “I’m the underdog” to “I actually have a fighting chance / I’m on an equal level with the enemies”.

Yep.

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