Proposal 🔑 time to retire Nightmare Sigils... for a "Helltide Dungeon" system?

PC General Discussion
1
TLDR: follow green text

2 weeks ago a new user named @Faffy made his/her first appearance in the forums. The user posted a collection of random suggestions where a very interesting point was made in one of them:

Does it make sense to have Nightmare Sigils after Season 6?

:key:https://imgur.com/rJ9O9l7

With Season 6, Nightmare Dungeons (NMDs) turned into Obducite farming areas, which I think was no bad decision. This led to some changes for Nightmare Sigils:

  • The Nightmare Sigils no longer have a tier or level to choose like with the Pit.
  • The whole Occultist crafting tab has a single panel left to click.
  • The number of dungeon affixes is drastically reduced for each sigil.

There is no sigil that makes the player like “wow, this is an interesting one”. Overall, the difference from one sigil to the next is neglectible, yet these things still drop regularely to be collected and to clutter the inventory for keys quite a bit. Do we want to have multiple of these items in our inventory or even in the stash? I dont think so.

Perhaps the devs are aware of this and improvements are planned sooner or later anyway. But here I wish they would not repeat the Horde Sigil treatment. I argue that the benefit of improving the key system may be too small. On the other hand, removing NMD keys entirely can open more interesting doors:



The Helltide Treatment for NMDs
Original Suggestion by Faffy

  • Remove Sigil keys. Starting T1, every x amount of time should randomize x amount of dungeons on the map to be nightmare. If you start a dungeon before the refresh, you get to finish that dungeon.

  • You should be able to teleport to available nightmare dungeons from the map.

  • Modifiers are also randomized.

  • every dungeon should have a listed boss reward: Rings, boots, weapon, boss mats ect; After downing the boss, all loot from boss is targeted gear from listed reward. Can help target farm gear you want to upgrade.

  • You get whisper exp after every dungeon completion.

  • Dungeon tier with-in Torment lvls. As you progress through the pit, reaching certain pit tiers this will also unlock dungeon tiers for that torment level, 3 tiers per torment? Tiers will increase enemy health/damage/exp and NMD completion exp equivalent to pit level unlock. I need something else besides the pit for P300 grind.

  • Make maps bigger and more randomized layout, make base game dungeons format to DLC dungeons.
    -New region needs spirit realm dungeon, very much enjoyed the aesthetic.
    -More Dungeon Boss variety is needed.

The devs want us to make use of all the content that is available. Ideally, the player should experience constant variation when doing things, so playing doesnt get boring. Coincidally, the system allowing NMDs to offer exactly this experience can already be found ingame, while looking at Helltide maps.

:key:https://imgur.com/Gtfn9ru

How it works:

  1. A set of 20+ different Nightmare Dungeons spawns randomly on the map, similar to Whispers. No sigil required. Rotation should change after some time.
  2. The dungeons modifiers (former sigil affixes) are also randomised and can be seen on the map.

These first points wouldnt function any different with keys, but it is more user-friendly to select them without a key. Now to the creative part:

  1. Each Dungeon is assigned with a random loot type that will drop way better. This is the equivalent to Tortured Gifts from Helltide.
    Example: Dungeon icon with helmet symbol - Bosses drop head equipment only while everything else like chests & enemies have a very high chance.
  2. Defeating the boss rewards Grim Favors for the tree.
  3. Defeating the boss will also open another floor and so do the following bosses. This allows the player to loot another round of helmets or whatever.

But there has to be a catch to make the floors interesting to (re)play. I suggest that with each floor…

  • …another (hidden) negative dungeon modifier will be added. Imagine it to get quite busy if a player manages to reach floor 10 with Stormbanes Wrath, Drifting Shade, Volcanic, Monster Enrage and so on.
  • …the amount of exp is increased. I am not entirely sure about this as the overall package is already very attractive.
  • …the chance to meet the Butcher or other special guests will rise.
  • …the dungeon maps will increase in size and have a more randomised layout (megadungeons).
Additional thoughts

Since this proposal reuses existing content, the devs shouldnt have a hard time implementing all of this. But in the end, this suggestion may offer solutions to several requests the community has made since launch.

There is a lot in store like endless target farming (also for Obducite), difficulty through crazyness, random megadungeons with many events, and I can imagine that there is a use case for leaderboards as well.

What I like about this ideas is, that the content feels not forced.

  • If players want to stay in a specific dungeon because of enemy types, environment, layout etc, then the next floor is the way to go.
  • No timer. A dungeon should stay open until the player decides to close it, but you can only visit it for one run in this rotation.
  • I am against higher dropchances per floor, so that skipping to the final boss is not enforced for loot hunting. Keep chill and explore the dungeon.
  • There are hundreds of dungeons in the game that are now back on the menu. If a dungeon selection fails to impress the player, then the next rotation is worth a look on the map.

A lot ideas are to have when thinking about special dungeons. What do you think?

32 Likes
2

very well writen thanks for the post, now if only someone from bliz actualy read it…

4 Likes
3

Actually a cool idea

2 Likes
4

Great idea and a very well written post.

2 Likes
5

No thanks, I prefer nightmare dungeons to helltide. In fact, I want glyph xp put back into the nightmare dungeons. Good post though OP, pretty with all the colors.

2 Likes
6

…another (hidden) negative dungeon modifier will be added.

Nope. You lost me here. Hidden modifiers defeat the point of active decision making. This is “bad” RNG.

…the dungeon maps will increase in size and have a more randomised layout (megadungeons).

Nope. If, the further down you go, unless you scale up the amount of stuff in the dungeon, the larger it gets, the less activity you’ll have per meter. You’re almost better off having it shrink as you descend until you get a pinnacle room that is just small and full of stuffs.

3 Likes
7

The overall idea with dungeon’s levels is pretty good but i’m against loot after each level/boss. It should be our decision do we want to take the offer or sacrefice it and enter next level with chance for maybe double it or it should have form of coins/points/curency spending on chest after each boss where chest price increases every time and we need to decide when we want to spend it. NMD need ugrade anyway. I have made some ideas by myself on the forum. I believe giving Platinum (even 1 coin) as a reward for future endgane activity would bring Blizzard a lot of new playerbase.

1 Like
8

What about a “shop” with very expensive equipment that you can only pay real money for? :money_mouth_face:

1 Like
9

No problem. The first floor would be the same as it is now, except with different drop rates. Once the first boss has been defeated, the player should receive the main rewards, such as Grim Favors, and be able to leave without regrets.

The modifiers are meant to be the element of surprise that makes playing the Nightmare dungeon unpredictable, fun and difficult. If we look at the current Nightmare Sigils, a player will always choose the least friction. Overall, there is very little choice or surprise.
The decision making in this suggestion is simply about “do I want more of that or start a different dungeon”.

Another point I thought of is, that these modifiers and dungeon selections should be identical for each player on the realm, so that noone can complain about bad luck. And perhaps for competitive reasons.

That said, I like the system in Horde mode. It could be a good fit with each boss giving a choice of three dungeon affixes to go forward.

This would require to reintroduce death limits, perhaps in a special version. For the base version, I lean more towards no pressure. I mean, it should be possible for a player to tackle another floor, even after dying countless times.

1 Like
10

The modifiers are meant to be the element of surprise that makes playing the Nightmare dungeon unpredictable, fun and difficult. If we look at the current Nightmare Sigils, a player will always choose the least friction. Overall, there is very little choice or surprise.
The decision making in this suggestion is simply about “do I want more of that or start a different dungeon”. Another point I thought of is, that these modifiers and dungeon selections should be identical for each player on the realm, so that noone can complain about bad luck. And perhaps for competitive reasons. That said, I like the system in Horde mode. It could be a good fit with each boss giving a choice of three dungeon affixes to go forward.

Have you ever heard of the Iron Triangle? It’s an idea that you if you want a project done and have three (or more, but three for the triangle) goals you can have two but give up one. In this case unpredictable, fun, and difficult do not jive well.

The more unpredictable something is the less fun it is.
The more fun something is the less difficult it is.
The more difficult something is the less unpredictable it is.

So if something is fun and unpredictable it can’t be too hard because it veers into frustrating.

If something is fun and difficult it can’t be too unpredictable because that veers into confusing.

If something is unpredictable and difficult it can’t be too fun because that veers into maddening*.

So what happens is likely a list is compiled of outcomes after some careful study and then people prepare for your “randomness” by sucking the unpredictability out of it. A good example of this is in POE2 where you have to do these annoying trials that build really lame drawbacks every single round; they’re meant to be semi-random (unpredictable), challenging (hard), and require to play well (“fun”) but they end up just being frustrating at best and maddening at worst.

Which means:

The decision making in this suggestion is simply about “do I want more of that or start a different dungeon”.

This is not actually a player driven decision. “Do you want more helmets or not?” Well, I want helmets so I’m not going to do the dungeons that don’t offer helmets and I highly doubt they all offer helmets so the choice to not go further is not a choice of accepting one’s limitations but instead a choice of accepting the consequences of just dealing with overwhelming developer driven oppression.

It’s basically the difference between being able to choose to do something and being stuck in a dialogue loop until you choose a specific something.

Another point I thought of is, that these modifiers and dungeon selections should be identical for each player on the realm, so that noone can complain about bad luck. And perhaps for competitive reasons.

But that also means that players who build to the dungeons win. Guy one goes spelunking and then he sends up the canary to all the others. Again, this removes unpredictable so now it has to be difficult + fun.

That said, I like the system in Horde mode. It could be a good fit with each boss giving a choice of three dungeon affixes to go forward.

Please god no. That’s just POE2 trials. It’s bloody horrible.

*Maddening here specifically refers to a state in which the game literally tests all of your patience playing it because you don’t understand how anyone could want to play through it. A good example would be a random encounter system where enemies can have 100% immunity to damage types but you also have a limited number of damage types available at any given time therefore driving you to madness when you run into a boss that you must pass which is completely immune to you. This was not as rare as I wish it was in the past and in many ARPGs this kind of thing occurred where an enemy was sometimes immune or effectively immune at 80%+ resistance to your only method of dealing damage. Remember, it’s random, so you can’t prepare.

11

You focus too much on the negatives. Many of your criticisms can be helped with a little adjustment. Others are a matter of preference.

I am not sure if I understand this part but I would say, without generalizing, that these statements are not true for myself. Thats why I enjoy playing ARPGs or games with heavy RNG.

This is true but it will basically always happen in games, independently from RNG.

While writing the proposal I assumed a dungeon rotation every 1-2 hours, similar to Whispers. The linked picture https://imgur.com/Gtfn9ru is how I imagined the distribution of farming options.

Here I would like to emphasize that this proposal was not aimed in the first place to offer sweaty endgame alternatives. If an equipment type is not or no longer in the rotation then it is time to do other stuff.
Personally, I like the thought of having the Nightmare Dungeon targets feel more like an event.

12

one of the better takes on nightmare dungeons - which i agree, are pretty lackluster since so much stuff got changed and added. Have a like =)

1 Like
13

You focus too much on the negatives.

That just means I am taking the idea seriously.

I am not sure if I understand this part but I would say, without generalizing, that these statements are not true for myself. Thats why I enjoy playing ARPGs or games with heavy RNG.

You need to be clear about what you mean here. There is “RNG I think is heavy!” and then there is actual heavy RNG. Most ARPGs have pseudo-random behavior in them and really high amounts of determinism. Going into the Cave of Guarantia will give you a rare or better item when you beat the Lord of Promised Loot and some players think that not getting what they want is “Heavy RNG” meanwhile in some games there are no CoGs or LoPLs and beating the hardest enemy in the game can still yield commons. Most players don’t play those games.

There’s a whole thing in ludology but players don’t like randomness as much as they think they do and don’t see determinism as much as they think they do. In stats humans just generally don’t think probabilistically at all and rarely intuitively understand the difference between likelihood and probability. To be clear what I am saying is that when people say that D4 has a lot of RNG they are flat out objectively wrong, it doesn’t, it contains almost none of it, and the little it contains is almost always net positive, and people mistake “I didn’t get what I wanted!” for “the gods are against me!”

I’m not condemning talking about your own experiences but if you’re going to propose game changes that impact thousands of players you need to be objective about it.

This is true but it will basically always happen in games, independently from RNG.

This isn’t true. That quote is in reference to the fact that you proposed a silent system of difficulty but if it is truly silent then it doesn’t happen in most games. It’s like if your crit rate silently rises by developer design over time because likelihood is not a human strong point as touched on before. So preparing here doesn’t reference the normal mapping out of a system of deterministic outcomes and acting accordingly but instead mapping out efficiency routes and simply skipping content.

To illustrate here’s two examples.

What you want:

“Oh ho! The screen has darkened around the edges. I wonder what awaits in the dark! I am a player who enjoys this kind of thing! Ha ha!”

What you’ll get:

“If you see the screen darken at the edges you got the Curse of F- This Cave and should leave. Go to the next cave and you’ll probably not have to deal with this because it only starts spawning on level 5 of the cave. It is significantly easier to just never do it.”

This is not the same issue I think you’re posing.

Anyway, to conclude, NMDs do need a facelift but turning them into giant, elongated versions of Varshan farming is just a waste of time. It’s a “fresh for a minute” type of idea; cool on the face, cool to see unfold the first ten times, and then a known slog to do the same thing over and over again, “sweaty” or not, with just broad target farming that has an implicit timer effect.

You may as well just make a “Scroll of Helmetland!” portal and just do that until you’re satisfied where everything drops is a helmet and you can swim in helmets rather than run weirdly long dungeons that apparently get bigger and bigger, harder and harder, and less and less rewarding with every level.

1 Like
14

I like it
:+1:

1 Like
15

I guess these two are related but I forgot to answer the first one:

I agree that it should be a given to have a 2x times bigger dungeon harbor 2x times more enemies etc.

The point of this suggestion is not necessarily to come up with something new, but to give players a reason to go into nightmare dungeons and stay there if they feel like it. I am sure it will get boring after a while or after doing it all day long. I am not a hardcore player myself, so it is a bit difficult to take that view.

But I know if additional bonuses were introduced for each floor, it would produce a lot of complaints in the community. That is why the idea was mainly to extend the dungeon run. The fact that it makes no sense to go down into infinity is intentional.

The scenario I have in mind for the floors is that if a player is strong enough to handle more dungeon affixes then he/she can enjoy blasting through a larger area with more enemies so naturally this results in more targeted loot. Not just equipment, but also Obducite.
If the progress slows down to the point it isnt efficient anymore or because it feels like a slog then the player should absolutely consider to stop.

I hope this answers some of your concerns. I have to admit that it was not easy to understand everything.

16

I agree that it should be a given to have a 2x times bigger dungeon harbor 2x times more enemies etc.

This is psychic violence. You can double the size of a room and double the items in it and still wind up with more empty space due to doubling the size of the room. An example:

I have a king size bed in a room that is measured 12 x 12. It will be cramped.

I now double both and I have two king size beds in a room that is now 24 x 24. It will be vast and appear almost empty.

If I were to double it again, 4 king beds in a room that is 48 x 48 that’s just a warehouse with beds awkward scattered in it.

Hopefully you get the idea but you can’t linearly scale the stuff up and avoid the problem I just posed.

The point of this suggestion is not necessarily to come up with something new, but to give players a reason to go into nightmare dungeons and stay there if they feel like it. I am sure it will get boring after a while or after doing it all day long. I am not a hardcore player myself, so it is a bit difficult to take that view.

No. Stop. Please.

Developers should not be over-incentivizing everything. If you don’t want to go into NMDs, don’t, that’s it, the developer should not shoulder the burden of the fact that you don’t want to do something and come up with ways to make you do it. In fact one of the complaints we have is that they did do this already with the pits and glyphs. If you don’t like pits but you want max glyphs there’s only one way.

Any incentive system designed to get you to do something has to be the best way to do that thing and that means it becomes the only way to do it. I feel like gamers don’t get that; if it becomes the standard it becomes the sole method. Every game. And yet people act like this is not the case.

1 Like
17

Which color will these ones be?

18

I am starting to believe this back and forth with abstract examples leads nowhere. It would be helpful if you add a game related counter suggestion to what you think is wrong.

If you double the size from 12x12 (144) it is 12x24 (288). That is what I meant from the beginning and what I thought would be obvious.

That is literally my point.

How does this not contradict the previous paragraph?

In this image https://imgur.com/Gtfn9ru I colored map symbols purple.

19

I am starting to believe this back and forth with abstract examples leads nowhere. It would be helpful if you add a game related counter suggestion to what you think is wrong.

I did. You couldn’t conceptualize it. For instance literally stating that making the dungeons bigger only made them emptier and then having to literally spell it out using an illustration three posts later.

It’s not workin’ bro. You’re married to your idea.

20

Purple Helltides wooooo