Not true. You would still use it until you could make a better one and D2 had a cube recipe (expensive of runes) to allow you to remove (destry) the existing runes and try again.
So having a high cost method to redo tempering would be no different.
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One of the easiest ways to give players at least some sort of “soft landing” with tempering is to add a “no change” option like you get with the enchanter. Get an affix that’s not so great but at least usable? Then you can keep it if you want, but you’ll still use up the materials and a tempering charge in the process. You may end up with the suboptimal affix, but you have a better chance of not ending up with an affix that can’t even be used by your build (such as rolling a Heartseeker affix when you use Forceful Arrow).
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100% - this would be great
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This is the correct fix to people’s frustrations. I like tempering as is. Would absolutely love it if there was a farmable and tradable item that adds rerolls
I actually think there should be two items. One that gives you 1 reroll and a separate one that completely resets tempering while keeping masterwork progress. This would be one of the most valuable things in the game and would drive trade economy.
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So after playing with the system a bit more, I feel 5 is definitely too restrictive especially when you are trying to re-roll across two categories (unless the idea is to brick items quickly).
I do not know if the affixes are equal weighted or not. I suspect some are and some aren’t.
I started taking random weapons just to try and get a specific temper. It took 5 weapons (25 re-rolls) before I could land a specific one. That’s not a particular fun RNG to have to go through.
In addition to the enchant opt out, my current recommendation without knowing weights would be 7 re-rolls per category and/OR an ability to reset tempering at high cost. Because we can still roll ranges, I think the 7 is a better statistical balance.
I agree with you that it should not brick the item if you fail your random tempering. This has happened to me on the PTR a couple times now, and while it hasn’t been a big deal because I’m tempering middling gear, if this happened on something truly rare it would be extremely frustrating.
There should be an increasing, and/or extreme cost to fishing for a max roll, but you should not get penalized for just getting the stat to make your build work.
We’ll see how much everyone likes the system when they brick their 1 in a million greater affix legendary that becomes unusable for their build.
The natural way to limit a system like this is to make resources to reroll scarce enough that you have to play the game to continue to reroll.
Really enjoyed this post. Very well put. Sums up a lot of d4 forum threads.
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But you are literally just able to put the exact affix you want on any item. That needs to be rare / hard to do.
I posted an idea about including some manuals that let you reject the reroll and others that are more powerful but work the current way. I think that could be a good compromise, but I’m not sure it’s even needed.
The uncertainty that comes with not getting the temper you need and not being sure you can get it back if you try to reroll makes those big rolls that much more exciting. And it’s not that hard to get what you want. If anything, they need to add some more affixes to the manuals with only 3 or 4 options. The resource one especially is just amazing.
This talk only convinces me more, than I already was, that most of this crafting stuff does not belong in A-RPGs.
Giving people more control over the process just leave them more frustrated.
Affix RNG should be in effect when the item drops, from the monster you just slayed. An item should drop with ALL of its affixes.
This is the tension Blizzard will need to balance!
With the system as it stands in PTR the drop rate of GAIII items will be the determining factor.
“If” you only see them once in a blue moon, your average player is going to dislike the system as more often than not tempering won’t give you want you want - statistically it’s designed that way.
“If” you are finding GAIII items at regular intervals, then it isn’t going to feel nearly as bad.
I think the PTR has drops rate that are 50-100% higher than what S4 will have so that should give an indication of how rare these GAIII items might be.
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Easy fix, get rid of the ranges, make the affix a fixed amount then the rolls dont feel too much like las vegas.
Have you ever solo cleared GR150 in D3 in a few days in all primal gear?
I bet you have not.
The True Scotsman logical fallacy.
Blizzard could double the number of tempering chances. Even with this, some players still would not have the desired affixes.
That means a larger affix pool and far, far worse chances of getting what you want. Tempering is basically target farming affixes 4&5.
I also think that current system is a bit tough. Being able to add affixes you want is really cool, but it should not end up making your item useless if you fail. I see 3 different ideas that could make this new system less punitive :
1 – Having more than 5 attempts on items with Greater Affix
2- Having new mats that allow you 1 more roll
3- Rolling only min roll once the 5 attempts are exhausted
Here is more details about this ideas :
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/proposals-about-tempering-and-bricking-items/156851
That part of tempering I think needs to stay, 5 chances is enough and the item is not bricked just because you didn’t get exactly what you wanted.
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It is not necessary, but it is unwise not to prepare for the consequences.
The problem is the situation in which it is NOT good enough. There are stats that are useless for a build, it is a “dead” or “neutral” stat that only uses space.
The first one is never a problem because it can’t get worse than it already is… but from that point on it is.
If the second is worse, discarded… if the third is worse, discarded… and so on.
That’s why 3. The first is equipped no matter what happens, the second is to see if I can have something decent, and the third is in case the second is garbage. And all this is thinking about a GA0 item.
I plan to masterworking the first object that has the correct stast, even if it is not GA.
Then will come the true terror of farming and disappointment… unless tempering has no limit.
OR, make the tempering more expensive.
Make the tempering more expensive.
It has it, but this reduce the number of attempts even if you don’t make a change.
I like the idea that it only takes one attempt if you make a change.
I agree. Just make it more expensive and remove the limit.
Please don’t make anything in this system more expensive. It’s already very bad for non-hardcore players. The systems are good, you just need to make them less annoying to deal with by adjusting drops and maybe making Rares have 3 affixes again so you find more items to re-roll.
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I don’t know, there’s something really fun about the idea of a journey for an item after you find it. But it would be nice if the journey was more unique to the item. That is, once you’ve chosen the right tempers you are mostly going to stick to the same ones for the same slots. Every once in a while you might make a different choice based on the 3rd affix of a drop maybe or based on the other temper, but there’s not much branching choice there.
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That isn’t a problem: if it isn’t good enough to use yet, the decision to temper again is easy.
Which temper you use could be even more interesting if there were some safer books (with many affixes you can use) and some less safe ones (with only one affix you want but it’s a really good one).
You don’t need 3. Just one at a time. If it is better than what you have, you got an upgrade. If it isn’t, keep farming. You literally lose nothing with the system, you just get a chance to gain something.
So you are worried that once you have successfully found a 3/3 item and gotten the two tempers you wanted and masterworked it the way you wanted, for every slot… that at that point it will be difficult to find upgrades? Umm, yes, it will. But you will get a lot of chances to try for it.
No, that won’t do anything. The point is to make drops interesting. Making it take longer to perfect them after they drop does nothing to make drops interesting.
That wouldn’t change the fact you can just perfect an item as if you were playing the item planner. It just means you have to farm more gold to do it. That isn’t fun. Fun is having surprise drops / rolls that ratchet you way up the ladder of possible items.
adding more cheese and pepperoni can cause heart burn and a bloated stomach.
It is a bit naive to think that tempering durability needs to be remove. You should land on a stat would matter (not guarantee all the time), but Diablo 4 is also about taking risks; even in min-maxing itemization. Sometimes i don’t even temper more of my items if I can still benefit from the stat it landed on… but that risk factor should exist.
I bet other would agree to not remove tempering durability.