Something definitely needs to be done, because there’s no worse feeling than bricking your new GG amazing drop because of bad Tempering RNG.
It feels like they tried to copy Last Epoch’s crafting system except instead of being able to cleverly manipulate your item, you have to just roll the dice and pray.
My idea to reset the tempering :
It’s an interesting idea… but how could a way to create branches be implemented?
When you have a build, or an idea in mind, you know more or less where you want to go and any branch that is not the one you want results in frustration.
Where the branches are interesting are in the RogueLikes, but only because you are very limited by what you find (and the limitations are not a problem since they are short games)
No, it is not a problem, but when you only have one item, one that you do not want to lose, one that you have earned after a lot of effort, it is a big problem if it is not good enough.
Yes and no.
I only require one for the upgrade. I require 3 so I don’t feel bad for failing the upgrade.
A 2/3 GA0 (0 Greater Affixes)* ( → 3/3 thanks to enchantments)
Obviously I want a 3/3 GA3 (you can’t get GA with enchantment), but even a 2/3 GA1 would be an improvement, and I don’t want that improvement to turn into garbage.
People say it would be too easy without Briking… I say do another more difficult part instead.
It’s more fun than seeing your object ruined forever.
You are being disingenuous.
That is the example of Masterworking to say that it is okay to even fail in Masterworking but not in tempering because it is adding something that you do not want in any situation and cannot be reverse.
That would be an interesting trade-off for resetting Tempering durability as they are very valuable and rare resources. You are giving up a degree of chance to choose an Uber Unique item as the trade-off.
However, its more fundamental than that and the ongoing debate in this sub; should a rest option exist?
I still think ‘no’ provided GAII/III items are of the appropriate rariety to keep people engaged. However, if it was done it would have to be something as rare as a Resplendent Spark.
I mean you are constantly finding items that aren’t upgrades. Finding an item worth tempering is exciting. Having the temper not work is a disappointment but it’s because that disappointment is possible that having it work is actually exciting. Otherwise, tempering is just a chore.
This just doesn’t make any sense. You need three useless items so that you don’t feel bad that one of them failed to become a useful item? Why do you feel that getting the perfect temper is the default outcome? What if you only got one shot at the tempering?
It is only an improvement if it gets the exact tempers you want? If so, then the dropped version is a crafting material you are hoping will turn into a useful item. If it is useful even with weaker tempered affixes, then making a choice to go with a higher-probability book (one where more of the affixes are useful) seems like a good idea. Either way, finding the chance to make something that upgrades your gear is cool.
Finding something that immediately upgrades your gear is also cool, but it means that the next upgrade is that much farther away. So adding more chances that feel interesting / exciting without adding more actual upgrades makes the game more exciting overall.
This is just an absurd way to think about it. It’s like buying a scratch off ticket and refusing to scratch it, or never looking at the numbers on a lottery ticket because doing so would ruin the object.
That might be an ok cost for a reset.
This is an interesting point, and actually is a huge problem with the modern landscape for ARPGs. People sit there playing the build planner and choosing everything down to the exact affixes they want and then anything other than that perfect setup is considered trash. But that isn’t how anyone should play these games. There should be a basket of affixes you want and if you get an item that has only affixes from the basket you are over the moon.
Anyway, an example of a branching choice would be if you are getting low on rerolls and choose to temper with a manual that has more affixes you want, to ensure you get a useful one, rather than taking a shot at a BIS one. Another example would be you temper your weapon and get a chance to double frost bolts, so you decide to use the other slot for something related to basic skills, but if you had gotten a chance to double frozen orb, you would have chosen to go for life on hit because it hits more targets.
There are some of these in the system as it is, and having more manuals with that trade off of safety vs value would help. It would be even better if there was a way for those outcomes to carry over into some set of choices you make for masterworking.
In general, I’m much more interested in how the system feels when you are playing it in the moment than in how it feels when you have some platonic ideal of an item you are chasing.
And it’s so disappointing that no matter how exciting it is, I don’t want to experience that disappointment.
Failing the roll is disappointing. Having minimal roll is disappointing.
Getting the right stat is exciting, a maximum roll is exciting. There is NO need for extra disappointments/excitements.
Has it ever happened to you that you stand up from a chair, look for something, then sit down and remember that you forgot something and it is very annoying?
It’s something like that.
I don’t want to fail and realize I have to do it all over again.
I prefer to collect enough before failing so I don’t have to get out of my chair again.
Something very different is my plan to approach the creation of my build. I first want to have the minimum to feel that my build is complete and then I look for greater affixes or maximum stats. (It’s like Diablo 3, first you look for the perfect non-primal item and then you look for the primal one)
As I said, I don’t mind farming. I like farming, but I don’t like losing my farming.
Some loss is acceptable, like materials, or gold… but the equipment: I wouldn’t let it go for anything. The difference is that spending materials brings me closer to the goal… while “that item” is my goal.
A material that does not feel like a material, but rather like the complete equipment itself.
Just so you understand: a car with a missing wheel is not the same as a wheel with a car missing.
Neither is complete without the other, and both can be considered incomplete materials of the final result: a car.
And yet they feel different.
(This is clearly an exaggeration to highlight the difference. I hope you understand)
Bad analogy because the ticket is single use. A piece of equipment It’s something that you will use constantly until you find something better.
It’s more like buying a car and not wanting to break it down just because you changed the wheels.
One way to make branches is to give affixes that are equivalent in power but different, such as x20% more damage vs. x20% more attack speed, or 10% more health vs. 10% less damage taken.
The problem with this type of branch is that it requires a lot of in-game testing, and briking an object is not good for testing these differences.
Right but this is exactly the problem with your view of it. You are treating the tempers as some common ingredient that is easy to add, like a wheel on a car. When in fact they are the key finishing ingredient that is difficult to pull off, like a good roux or a perfectly-whipped meringue. Or a perfect temper on a real sword. You are thinking about the base item as being the whole item, when all it is is a good base.
A car without a wheel is something you can fix. But a base item that hasn’t been tempered is just a scratch off ticket with a few promising spots revealed, a drawing of a tattoo you want, a piece of driftwood that suggests a cool carving, pair of Aces preflop in Texas Hold’em. There are many analogies, but the key feature is specifically that it is not a compete item, there is still a steps or steps that have to be taken for it to become complete and those steps are not guaranteed. It doesn’t make the item worthless and it doesn’t make the endeavor bad. In fact, I think it characteristic of the most exciting endeavors: risk taking and art.
You could easily test the branches on lesser items because the cost to temper is very low. Do it on some throwaway items, see which affixes perform best, then go for those when you find potential upgrades. But like I said, the trade offs along the way, like whether to play it safe or risk a step backwards, are part of the fun.
The reason why I put more value is because it is the visible face (everything else is “burned” and disappears in the improvement process), in addition to the fact that it’s the only “material” that made me excited when I found it.
The point is that it’s important, or at least it feels important.
That’s why I don’t want to see this item become garbage.
And that is why I would like another type of risk.
Having said that and after this whole thread, I can safely say that there is no argument that will make me change my mind about the importance of the items I find.
Although I do understand better those who do not see value in the item… they simply see it as just another replaceable and burnable material. The truth is that it is quite normal to think like this when these games do not give space to “collect” items. Since I’m a single-class and single-build player, I can afford that pleasure (and I always have my little “diamonds” that accompany me for years).
I hope the developers really create that “journey” for the items and revive that feeling of “being attached to your weapon” (and give us enough space in the stash so it doesn’t get forgotten again 
)
Maybe, although when you want to be meticulous you have to follow certain “guidelines”, such as: a good test item doesn’t have additional stats that can affect it. But I know what you’re saying, small-scale testing is definitely easy in that sense.
Large-scale testing (that is, testing a complete build on high difficulties) is what is really difficult. Although the truth is that it depends on the game.
The only thing I find difficult to test in Diablo 4 is the balance between damage stats… the math got very strange with the changes to vulnerable and critical.
(We need target dummies)
I can sort of understand how some people will feel like they’re having something taken away when they feel an item has been bricked, but you never really had it in the first place. You had a really good piece of gear, just not perfect. And after, you STILL have a really good piece of gear, just not perfect.
Personally I’m kind of on the fence about it. I can see how it will feel frustrating to some people, like holding an almost winning lottery ticket until the last number is called, but also there needs to be a reason to keep chasing that next gear goal.
Casual players probably don’t have the time to chase perfect end game gear under any system so designing a system fully catered to that group is kind of a moot point. Similarly for ultra Hardcore players. They will always find a way no matter the system. So there needs to be a Midcore system that is enough of a challenge without locking out 99% of the player base.
I want to feel like it’s really something special when I finally do get that perfect piece, but I also don’t want to have to start wearing diapers at my computer desk
(edited for clarity)
I am in favor of balance, as long as it doesn’t limit our fun.
Those who seek challenges can impose them on themselves without problems.
If the Tempering limit is removed, everyone who does not want that change can voluntarily destroy their items after 5 attempts. The game doesn’t put diapers on you, it just gives them to you… you are the only one who decides if you wear them or not.
One thing I’ll say is that I don’t like my resistances being in Tempering. I’m testing the leveling process right now, so I’m not at WT4, only in WT2 right now, so I don’t know if the resistances come on tempering recipes or how it opens up with enchanting or not.
But so far I’ve wasted about 5 items trying to get the right combination of resistances. And I know I’m sacrificing something by having to temper resistances on my gear.
I would’ve preferred they remove resistances from rolling altogether, and just had them as default affixes like on Amulets and rings, but also added them to armor, so you wouldn’t just get Armor but also a % in resistances. Then it adds another layer to finding that perfect piece of armor with the right resistances on them. Versus sacrificing armor or other tempering options.
There is something to the original post, but I don’t know if just making it unlimited / progressively more expensive is the answer.
I think my biggest fear is to roll a stat I like on the first go, but with bad/avg roll. Then it’ll feel terrifying to risk losing that stat at all. I think to allow for experimentation, it’d be great to allow to not change the affix at each tempering attempt. So, worst case you just choose that option of “no change” the next 5 times you try and you are no worse off than you were before (no better either). Best case, one of the other tempering attempts is an upgrade (or rolls a high roll on one of the other affixes you are happy with) and it feels like a win.
This doesn’t require any extra attempts. Just allows you to not make an item worse. It’ll make it feel less bad (and you’ll spend a bit less time tempering - it will still take time, and probably many attempts, but you won’t feel like you lost anything).
It isn’t fun to break item after item because I get damage to distant on my barbarian and all barbarian damage is close damage. Why does it even exist in the Tempering for barbarian.
(this reply got long so I bolded a couple key points)
I think what’s happening is that because there are a fixed number of rerolls, people look at rerolls as a resource they should be spending and therefore feel a little bad accepting a mediocre roll even though it hit the right affix. In comparison, LE has the legendary potential, where you have to make do with the rolls you already had, and the forging potential where there is almost always something productive to do with leftover potential.
If the system had a progressive cost or required a very rare resource to reroll but with no limit, it would be easier to stop when you got something decent. But a progressive cost would also feel like an obnoxious money/time sink because you could theoretically perfect your rolls for the right cost.
I think the best solution is to create an obvious / easy to see system where the different manuals have varying levels of “safety”. I suspect that this is already the case to a degree based on how they populated the manuals (some of them have multiple affixes that do extremely similar things, others have affixes that might work on the same build but often won’t, and others have affixes that clearly can’t all work on the same build). The problem is that people playing the game won’t necessarily see or recognize that because it is implicit rather than explicit and because each player is only seeing part of the picture (whichever manuals they’ve found as drops).
They could make it a bit more clear by creating some versions of manuals that are called “stable manual of blah” and have all affixes from the same build type, all of them with fixed, midrange rolls instead of a roll range. And then maybe also add “unstable manual of blah” where it has one starred affix with a higher max roll.
But people will still want to be able to spend their rerolls on something without losing the affix they rolled. So I think it would also be cool to give a tempering option that spent a reroll to just increase the existing tempers by one tick (without changing their max roll).
Here is another Idea
I couldn’t disagree more. There’s an excitement to getting the tempered affixes with good rolls. If you remove the limit, the second a good item “base” drops, you know you already have your BIS item. And that slot is just done. And going to town to temper and masterwork it is just a chore with a predicted outcome. This also completely kills item progression and power over time scaling.
You get 7 chances on tempering. With the first two being “free”. That gives you an 86% chance to get the affix you want. That’s pretty high.
And I think that’s how it should be… finding a perfect base is a cause for celebration, not doubt or disappointment.
Also, every three months there is a balance and new things, so you will probably have to grind every season for a new item.
Some great thoughts in the whole reply, but I think that point alone would solve my issue. Then, I would start with the unstable ones, try my luck and keep my last temper roll for a “stable” manual if I don’t get what I want at all. At least I’ll know I won’t lose what I really want …
One of the problems is how hard these new ARPG’s scale and the limited build paths to get you to the next content tier.
We have:
The game forces you to optimize or you cannot progress beyond a certain point because everything scales to such extremes.
Blizzard has also clearly designed builds that require X,Y and Z and you need to find those elements 50x over to get the best version of said items and build. There isn’t all that much interchangeability with many skills when it comes to builds.
While I agree, players shouldn’t have to play the game that way, unfortunately that is how these games are designed now.
I did not , you are right. Bu i know ppl who did and its just not fun. But Gr1 and Gr150 is the same just higher numbers. Its not like you get new boss every 50 Gr’s to test your build.