Necromancer in Diablo 4: A Cry for Balance

Necromancer
21

Not going to argue too much, just saying in Diablo games specifically, the “summoner” aspect of the necromancer isn’t the end all be all of the class. In the Diablo Universe their also spell casters that do other things to great effect. As far back as Diablo 2, there’s been bone centric builds and corpse explosion centric builds that used a golem or no minions at all.

In Diablo 3 they introduced blood magic to their tool kit and corpse skills like Corpse Lance.

Any way, what I’m saying, is asking for the “summoner” aspect of Necromancer to be buffed is fine, but arguing the the “summoner” aspect of the Necromancer is “Core to the class and thus should be powerful because reasons…” isn’t true.

In the Diablo Universe, the summoner is a build a choice, just bone, shadow, or corpse use, or blood magic. And builds in Diablo have always required gear to make them work.

If you didn’t have + Raise Dead gear in Diablo 2 to increase the damage and number of undead, you were playing a weak summoner. In Diablo 3, they created a set that caused your Skeletons to attack mobs whether you “activated” them or not (meaning you could activate them once and they’d go pretty much through 2 to 3 packs without you activating them again.)

In other words, in the Diablo Universe, Necromancer summoner builds were always gear dependant, just like the other builds available to Necromancer.

Any way, just saying your idea of Necromancer should be a powerful summoner independent of gear just doesn’t hold true in the Diablo Universe.

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  1. Thematic Integrity: The very essence of a Necromancer, both in the Diablo universe and in broader fantasy lore, is the ability to command and raise the dead. This thematic core is the foundation upon which the class is built, and it’s non-negotiable.
  2. Identity as a Summoner: A Necromancer is defined by their role as a summoner of the undead. Without this ability, the class loses its unique identity and becomes indistinguishable from other magic-wielding classes like the Witch or Wizard.
  3. Historical Precedent: Throughout the history of RPGs, including the Diablo franchise, Necromancers have consistently been depicted as masters of the undead. This isn’t a recent development or a matter of player preference; it’s a well-established archetype.
  4. Player Expectations: When players choose to play as a Necromancer, they do so with the expectation of embracing the summoner playstyle. Denying them this fundamental aspect goes against their expectations and can lead to disappointment.
  5. Class Diversity: A game like Diablo thrives on class diversity. Each class should offer a unique and distinct playstyle. Removing the summoner aspect from the Necromancer diminishes this diversity and homogenizes the class roster.

In summary, a Necromancer who cannot summon the undead fundamentally contradicts the character’s thematic integrity, historical precedent, player expectations, and the broader goal of class diversity in the game. Such a character ceases to be a Necromancer in the true sense and becomes something entirely different, like a Witch or a generic spellcaster.

23

They can do that.

That’s only one build. Are you saying a necromancer should be a summoner only? I mean, even if we’re talking Table Top RPG’s like D&D, the necromancer had more in their tool kit than “I’m a summoner.” I mean, you could play one like that but you could also avoid summoning spells entirely and take other thematic spells like skills that debuffed the monsters you fought (similar to curses in the Diablo Universe) or offered battlefield control or whatever else included in the Necromancer spell list or any other wizard spell you chose.

So no, the Necromancer isn’t only a Summoner and it never has been.

See the above.

My expectations maybe different than yours but if the Necromancer was only good at Summoning that just isn’t what I expect from a Necromancer.

There’s such things as intraclass diversity also, but you ignore that because "The Necromancer is a summoner and only a summoner, which I’ve already proved is false.

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24

Saying they’re at the core implies elevated importance. It sounds to me like the OP is saying Necromancers must reanimate the dead. Compared to saying Necromancers can reanimate the dead. It’s an important distinction.

The root issue here is Minion viability. The solution is straightforward. Minions should be better. Everything else is just… noise. A distraction from that straightforward problem and solution.

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25

I’m sorry, but your argument is fundamentally flawed. Let’s address this with precision:

  1. One Build?: The concern isn’t just about “one build.” It’s about the core identity of the class. While the Necromancer can have various playstyles, the primary thematic foundation has always been summoning and controlling the undead. This isn’t a limitation; it’s a fundamental aspect of the class’s identity.
  2. Tabletop RPGs Like D&D: Even in tabletop RPGs like D&D, the Necromancer class is traditionally associated with raising and controlling undead creatures. While players can explore different thematic spells and abilities, the core identity of the class remains intact – mastering death and commanding the dead.
  3. Tool Kit Variety: The Necromancer class can indeed have a diverse toolkit, but the summoning aspect should not be sidelined or overshadowed. Abilities that debuff, control the battlefield, or offer other thematic spells should complement the summoner role, not replace it.
  4. Historical Consistency: Across various RPGs and within the Diablo franchise itself, the Necromancer archetype has consistently been portrayed as one who summons and controls the undead. Ignoring this historical consistency erases the core thematic identity of the class.

In summary, arguing that the Necromancer isn’t primarily a summoner is a misunderstanding of the class’s historical and thematic foundation. While there is room for diverse playstyles, the summoner aspect remains integral to the Necromancer’s identity. To suggest otherwise is to deny the class’s longstanding heritage and established thematic core.

My expectations maybe different than yours but if the Necromancer was only good at Summoning that just isn’t what I expect from a Necromancer.

Do a simple bing or google search, ask what is a necromancer?

i did it myself purely to show people on this platform that are KILLING the Necromancer character and pusing it into the ground!
And i wanted to post a screenshot but this forum doesn’t allow it to happen… cuz it clearly stated and i quote

a person who uses witchcraft or sorcery, especially to reanimate dead people or to foretell the future by communicating with them:

Just because you find it not true to it’s core, doesn’t mean you’re correct.
If i want to be shooting spears or any kind of shooting ill play Rogue.

If i want to shoot ice/fire ill play as a Sorcerer, but a Necromancer is a summoner of the undead.

Take a history lesson, google/bing for a bit and be amased…

26

The Necromancer is not a Summoner Only. It never has been. Hell, like I said, in D&D, it was discouraged even more than you assume it is in this game on account of table dynamics. Controlling 40 some odd undead could be fun but it slows down the game and other members of the table would complaign if you had more than one or two summons and prefered you to act as a “death blaster” type because it made the game smoother.

Anyway, if you want to play a Summoner Necromancer, you absolutely can, but just like any other class, you have to find the right gear for it. And whining “I can’t play a Summoner because it requires a ring” doesn’t change the fact that you can play one without the ring.

You want a Summoner Necromancer to not have to find gear. Well sorry, bud, but gear hunting games require gear. If you don’t like it, I suggest you play another game.

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27

I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that playing a Summoner Necromancer without the Ring of Mendeln is a viable option. While it’s true that in theory, you can attempt to play without it, the practical reality is quite different. Here’s why:

  1. Build Viability: The Ring of Mendeln is not just any piece of gear; it’s the linchpin for making a Summoner Necromancer build viable in Diablo 4. Without it, the damage output of minion-focused builds is severely lacking, making the gameplay experience frustrating and far from enjoyable.
  2. Core Identity: The essence of a Summoner Necromancer is raising and commanding the dead. To relegate this core aspect to the realm of “you can do without it” is to undermine the class’s thematic identity and the expectations of players who choose this class precisely for that reason.
  3. Balancing Issue: Balancing a class should not be contingent upon the availability of a specific unique item. The balance should ensure that various playstyles within the class are equally viable and enjoyable. Currently, the dependency on the Ring of Mendeln creates an imbalance in build diversity.
  4. Community Consensus: The widespread discussion and consensus within the Diablo 4 community highlight that this isn’t a matter of individual “whining” but a shared concern regarding the class’s balance and identity.

In conclusion, while it’s technically possible to play a Summoner Necromancer without the Ring of Mendeln, the practical reality is that it’s far from a satisfying or competitive experience. The class’s core identity and viability should not be held hostage by the necessity of a single unique item.

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Funny, seems if I was to throw bonestorms around, I have to have a Shield that enables that playstyle in this game. But I guess requiring a piece a gear to do something I think is cool is okay, but asking a Summoner Necromancer to meet the same requirement is a bridge too far.

C’mon. You know better than that.

Edit:

Personally, I think you’re gripe is more about the ring’s rarity than it is “it requires the ring”. I mean, seems to me if you got the ring more frequently you’d be happy. Fine, then ask for a better drop chance but to say, “My build shouldn’t need gear” is frickin’ laughable.

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29

I’m sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with your comparison. The issue here isn’t about wanting unique gear to enhance a playstyle; it’s about the fundamental viability of the Summoner Necromancer as a class.

The Ring of Mendeln isn’t just a nice-to-have item; it’s practically mandatory for making the core summoner playstyle even remotely competitive. Without it, the class’s damage output is abysmal, forcing players into a very narrow and gear-dependent path. This isn’t about meeting requirements; it’s about addressing a glaring imbalance and ensuring that a class’s core identity can be enjoyed by players without feeling underpowered and restricted.

Comparing this situation to the need for a shield for a bonestorm build is like comparing apples to oranges. One is about enhancing a specific playstyle; the other is about making the entire class functional. So yes, it is a bridge too far, and it’s a legitimate concern that many players share.

Edit: to your edited answerd:

let’s be blunt here. This discussion isn’t primarily about the rarity of the Ring of Mendeln. It’s about the fact that a Summoner Necromancer’s viability is overwhelmingly dependent on this one unique item.

To compare this situation to the notion that “my build shouldn’t need gear” is missing the point entirely. Every class in Diablo 4 benefits from gear to enhance their abilities, but none should be as shackled to a single piece of equipment as the Summoner Necromancer currently is.

The core issue is about achieving balance, not just drop rates. It’s about ensuring that a class’s core identity can be enjoyed without feeling forced into a specific, gear-dependent build. This isn’t a laughable concern; it’s a legitimate call for class balance and diversity.

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There’s no excuse for what he’s doing. As we can see in his exchange with KillerProc, who by the way, was ABSOLUTELY DEAD ON and EXCELLENT post on the matter, Gandalf doesn’t give a damn about any other spec or any other opinion other than his own opinions and minions. I mean he said it himself.

Everyone kept saying they agreed with him but what he’s actually doing is using a known issue with Necromancers and trying to leverage that in a forceful way. He’s not interested in having any nuanced discussion about the class. Simply put. What he’s saying is, Minions only, F- you.

Devs and Community Managers should automatically dismiss what this guy says from now on. To other users, get wise to what these hateful and toxic users are doing. Don’t let them use what are actual problems so that they can force their opinion down your throat.

Again, the exchange with KillerProc is a shining example. Look at the overall back/forth. It’s all right there. KillerProc responds thoughtfully and then Gandalf immediately disagrees and then lists all the things he thinks is the way it should be. Addressing nothing of what KillerProc says.

I wasn’t even here to rag on this guy. Just giving him (like I give everyone else) due consideration and what he does is turn around and spit it back in my face. Even though I didn’t even disagree with him. Make it make sense please.

31

I strongly disagree with the assertion that discussing the core identity of the Necromancer as a summoner of the undead and emphasizing the importance of minions is tantamount to dismissing nuanced discussions.

The point being made is not a rejection of diversity within the class; it’s a call for ensuring that the class’s thematic foundation is upheld and balanced.
Every ability within the Necromancer’s toolkit should indeed revolve around their core identity of raising and commanding the dead.

This isn’t about limiting the class; it’s about preserving its unique identity and providing a satisfying gameplay experience for those who choose it for that very reason.

and to say this… :

Devs and Community Managers should automatically dismiss what this guy says from now on.

im not gonna sink to your level

32

There’s one thing I can agree with…

I’ve made three characters this season, a Rogue and two Necromancers. The first necromancer I intended to be a Shadow/Summoner but I made it to like 70 or 80 something (I don’t have the game open right now so I can’t be sure the exact level). I couldn’t find a Medeln Ring on him. The second was a Bonespear. He’s level 100 now and I found a Lidless Wall somewhere in 70’s (almost as soon as entering World Tier 4). The build was fun, so it was worth playing.

Also, with this character, I’ve found two Mendeln Rings. If I’d found them on the first character I probably would have stuck with the Shadow/Summoner. At any rate, since I now have the rings I can now go back to my first necromancer and play that build or use the scroll from the Season Journey to re-work my second necromancer into the Shadow/Summoner while canibalizing my first necromancer’s gear.

So, requiring the Ring isn’t the issue to me, but the Ring being too rare is but on the same note, I’ve only found the one Lidless Wall, so that seems a bit too rare too, maybe.

But if they were to buff minions at the base, I wouldn’t mind. But requiring a Summoner Necromancer to have the right gear isn’t the problem. Having that gear be entirely too rare, though, is.

Anyway, at the same time, precluding me from playing another Necromancer build because “Summoner is supposed to be Core to the class identity” is still a non-sale as far as what a Necromancer can be whether we’re talking this game or any other type of RPG that includes a Necromancer as a playable class.

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33

I also have 2 necro’s 1 bone spear (level 100) and 1 will at level 100 respeced into shadow summoner (currently blood-summoner). Problem I have with bone spear (yes I do have Lidless although not the best roll 10%) is fragility. I stuck with upper 80s NM and never was able to kill Lilith Echo.
At this moment necro class mechanic REQUIRE at high level NM have very effective CC (crowd control) which in return forcing you use combo blood mist and bone prison, CT along won’t cut it past NM 80. In other words as long as you are capable maintain between your body and pack Bone Prison or/and CT and have blood mist on-demand you won’t need exceptional damage

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34

Well i may not agree to everything you’ve typed but…,

as i shall quote you:

So, requiring the Ring isn’t the issue to me, but the Ring being too rare is but on the same note, I’ve only found the one Lidless Wall, so that seems a bit too rare too, maybe.

But if they were to buff minions at the base, I wouldn’t mind. But requiring a Summoner Necromancer to have the right gear isn’t the problem. Having that gear be entirely too rare, though, is.

problem i would say more…, is only ring of mendeln beeing a good - well performed build for summoners, i love grinding don’t get me wrong, but ring of mendeln since that’s the only specific build to go for that actually does decent damage, and doesn’t take 5minutes in a bossfight to defeat him while others take 5-20 seconds…, with ring of mendeln beeing a unique wt3- mostly 4 level 80+ item thats just rough…, most people playing necromancer would have quit…, and swap to bonespear, i did the same at release of the game i shredded with bonespear everything in mere seconds, while i had all the right items for my minion build (except for ring of mendeln) my dps simply sucked hard…

dont get me wrong btw…, perhaps others may have understood me wrong here, i dont mind corpse explosion, corpse tendrils, or shadow damage passive from corpse explosion, even with paragon board where minions can deal more dps over shadow damage (very nicely in my oppinion) but…
then again this only works with ring of mendeln build

and a very rare unique item should NOT but the only viable build for a summoner… its stupid really…, minions shouldn’t have been nerfed in the first place they were very good, just strong for the start… but they may have even been weak after hitting wt4 befored they got nerfed in beta, since that was only till level 25…, they shouldn’t have nerfed minions at all…

they should have created a level system like PoE does with minions (gems), each seperate gem level increases the minions dps/hp/lifesteal etc… (perfect) nice scaling over each level.

minions do need this, cuz you 100% will get CRUSHED in endgame and grinding for 80levels (to FINALLY) get into that unique grinding set (in the hope you get it)…, thats just not it!

hopefully i made myself more clear this time :raised_hands:

35

Yeah, with my build, Uber Lillith is a no go, but I’ve done a 91 NMD. I can go higher but getting the right NMD with right affixes has been rough me. The toughness isn’t the issue because I’ve worked the “bonestorm consumes corpses and extends it’s time” and the “bonestorm provides a barrier of 5% life per tick”.

My Lidless Wall is a 15% (I’ve previously said it 23% in other posts) but the bonestorms are constantly procing even at that. In addition, the proc’d bonestorms also consume corpses and I think, though I can’t be certain, also provide a barrier per tick. I don’t pay too much attention once my barrier is up if the barrier goes away if my original bonestorm drops before I have to actually recast it because, I can pretty much run the entire dungeon having the bonestorm’s still procing from the shield because as long as one of those is still active then more will proc on Lucky Hits.

However, in the Higher NMD’s I sometimes have to slow my game play down if it takes too long to kill mobs on account my original bonestorm will drop and the proc’d bonestorms expire before getting to other mobs. But again, this is usually because I’m running a less than ideal NMD base just because the affixes were right.

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36

I dare you to try and run your entire build without ring of mendeln (because i after hundreds of hours still do not have it sadly…)

don’t ask me why i’ve got 0 clue, i genuilly quit the game after not beeing able to get it for so long that i just said F no im out…

mostly cuz of the EXTREME tedious slow dps im doing its ridiculously how slow im going, while i look at other characters zipping in and out of NMD within mere seconds to kill a boss, while im at a bossfight and he outheals my dps almost cuz of missing 1 item…

but if i swap to my bonespear build i can kill him in 5seconds :woman_facepalming:

to be fair…, since i’ve read target farm uniques in Season 2, thank god for this… i rlly rlly hope they implement this properly cuz that basically fixes the issue, even though its still only 1 specific unique, and tbh i would still prefer beeing a lot stronger early game cuz its just extremely slow and tedious…

but yeah for very late in endgame NMD 90+ thats fair that youll have to take it a “bit” slower thats perfectly reasonable although i havent been able to go there at all since im missing that damn ring… so i can’t tell if its TO slow or slow in a way that its not annoying to kill 1 elite.

37

I won’t take that dare. It’s why I set the first Necromancer on the shelf until I got the Ring. Both my Rings rolled pretty low on the damage though. I know there’ll be an improvement with the Ring but both Rings just slightly over minimum damage will limit me, I’m pretty sure.

But yes, I wouldn’t play a Summoner without the Ring, while at the same time, I’m not sure if I’d run another bonespear without Lidless Wall either. The shield just adds entirely too much damage mitigation for me to ever feel comfortable trying to completely avoid damage while running without it.

But your point is taken. I only disagree in that I think a build enabling item is okay as long as that item isn’t so rare that you might never see it while playing the game.

38

Here we go :smiley:

  1. Ghost with lighting lance = insta death
  2. Poison? As soon as you miss by the split second refreshing of barrier = insta death
  3. Fire damage? - oh yeah love those as well :smiley:
  4. Backstabers? (and yeah I have w/o barrier 12k life + 60% barrier from legs)
    Net result I have keep rolling for avengers or suppressors … cold damage also fine or lighting lance as long as this damage not comes with backstabing ghosts :slight_smile:
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39

fair i can agree to this message…,
unique items are great concept in the game though…
but considering you need to be level 60-80+ for unique items… and that beeing the only good build for endgame, untill you have it as you mentioned you just put it away, and that’s precisely what i did as well which is a shame for the class cuz i love playing as an intended necromancer “summoner of the undead” and not beeing able to deal enough dps to get through the game due to 1 missing item after 60-80 + levels (basically done the entire game) is just a shame…

perhaps with target farming uniques it (maybe) goes a lot smoother… but without knowing the full intention behinds blizzards idea in S2 target farm uniques…, im not gonna guess on that…

but indeed as you mentioned with that new unique in this season the shield unique for bonestorm, i feel like the game in its entirely “could” be great…, BUT and that’s a BIG BUT…, it lacks a lot of features passive skills and items that enable a lot more build variaties cuz you’re simply locked between 1 or maybe… 2 builds alone and without the specific unique item that you only get after level 60-80 + (if you get it) because im level 100 for many many weeks, and i dont have it yet… sadly…

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40

Yes you can play summoner w/o ring it’s just different type of summoner :smiley: blood instead of shadow. Entire Russian Meatgrinder built revolve around 2 VERY common unique - deathspeaker pendant and razor tail mail and I have to admit that you do need maligant heart for auto summon. You won’t see 10M crits here but with double surge and blood/physical damage enhancers pets constantly doing 10-100k splash damage on entire area PER PET. Not sure if in D4 exist such thing as a cast/skill interrupt but once you cluster a lot mobs in single spot and release 2-3 novas - everything toast (up to NM60)