You think a damage value of a greater affix modified in every possible way it can, the final value possible is better than a basic roll that hasn’t been modified yet.
I did not compare affixes of different upgrade levels. In my example both the HP and op damage were upgraded to the same level.
My point is that max HP can give you the same amount of damage if you go all out on multipliers, which is impressive.
Without any upgrades or greater affixes, the max rolls on a 2h weapon are:
120% overpower damage
1746 HP
You can get up to a 2.83 multiplier on HP. The referenced maxroll build guide uses a multiplier of 2.1. If you pick up a couple of additional nodes, which doesn’t cost much, you’ll end up somewhere in between.
Even at the 2.1 multiplier, the comparison is 120% op damage versus 92% overpower damage plus 3666 HP. I’d pick the latter, especially since blood builds have very large amounts of additive damage already, but that’s just my opinion.
The normal overpower damage roll […] still has paragon board value increases. You can sacrifice to to get more value still. You can add an aspect to increase that sacrifice even more still.
Could you explain which increases you refer to, please? If it’s Bloodbath for example, that’s a 1.35 multiplier to overpowering hits. It doesn’t just increase your additive overpower damage bonus by 35% but all of your damage, including what you gain from hp. The same is true for bone mage sacrifice.
Percental increases to life like rubies or paragon nodes are multiplicative. This means they don’t scale linearly but exponentially.
Here’s a chart showing how much overpower damage you gain from +1000 hp depending on the number of 2% life nodes you have. The data range ends at a total multiplier of 2.8, which is what you can get from gems and paragon combined. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K3YGcs8CQKQv5NNc-R7W1gD-8AKY5njNJ3pCWk1rkJM
In game, using last character that went Overpower that exceeds base life, adding chestpiece with 2 royal rubies and +1,310 maximum life gained…
ZERO overpower damage on the stat sheet.
Which as far as I can see based on the game, not some builder or assumption, does not add SCALABLE overpower damage.
Don’t need a chart, a link, maxroll, or anything else. The game is proving that maximum life simply is not as good as overpower damage. All stats you add called overpower damage whether through item or paragon will scale with overpower damage bonuses but the amount you get from life is added on at the end.
That’s why I said that life is not as valuable to an overpower build once you are survivable.
That’s why numerous other people have said the same thing.
Of course it doesn’t show up as OP damage on your character sheet. It’s just part of the damage formula.
All bonuses from paragon and aspects, which scale overpower damage multiplicatively, do so globally. Take the Bloodbath legendary node for example.
Deal 35%[x] increased Overpower damage.
What this translates to is
When you overpower, multiply your total damage by 1.35
The damage gained from HP and fortify is part of your additive damage bucket, which is a completely separate multiplier. As such, it scales with any other multiplier you might have. D4 does not have any damage increases which aren’t affected by multipliers since the overpower formula was reworked.
I don’t know what you tested in game besides looking at the character sheet but here’s a test sample showing that the in game numbers are indeed what we’d expect from the damage formula.
When you do something that multiplies overpower damage, it increases based on the overpower damage stat.
That’s plainly incorrect. They’re just multipliers with a condition attached. IF you overpower then you get a 1.35 multiplier.
Just take a look at the test data. I measured an increase of 34% with ZERO overpower damage on my gear or paragon. With an additional 9466 life, the test still showed an increase of 31% from Bloodbath, which is well within margin of error. If the additive damage gained from life was not affected by Bloodbath’s multiplier the percental increase would be significantly smaller.
And all that of course still comes after you’ve been shown that a greater max life affix that’s been given every possible bonus for it is barely keeping up with a basic overpower damage stat roll. Not even a greater roll.
I don’t know where you get that from. The examples I posted earlier in this thread never compared an upgraded greater aspect with a basic overpower damage roll. All comparisons were done with the same upgrade level.
Because again, you seem ready and willing to die on a hill that other players besides myself have said is wrong. You act like I’m the only one in the history of D4 to point out that maximum life is not as beneficial as overpower damage stat but I’m not.
Yet, you cannot prove any of your assumptions or reference other players’ posts.
You can say I’m wrong all you want. There’s no weight behind your argument if you don’t base it on data.
I’m just showing the math behind overpower and HP scaling along with in game tests proving it correct. If you still think I’m mistaken why don’t you point out the error with actual numbers?
I’m tired of pointing out how you’re wrong.
Ignorance is bliss. Just make sure you don’t fall off the edge of the world.
To be fair, the game does a bad job explaining that behavior.
As an example, the Bone Mage sacrifice. It says your Overpower damage is increased by 25%. It’s got the little x indicating it’s a multiplier. This could mean the bonus is a multiplier to your overpower damage in isolation. It could also indicate the bonus is applied to overpowered attacks globally. The only way to truly know the behavior would be to test it. The wording is vague.
A much better way to phrase it is “Your Overpowered attacks deal 25% increased damage.” In this case there wouldn’t be any ambiguity. Just about anyone reading that would know what it is saying.
Whomever does tooltips and ability descriptions clearly needs to step up their game. Although, they have been doing better lately.
I’d bank on heavy usage of life affixes being meta in S4. Simply due to incoming damage in high tier pit and to some extent level 200 Echo bosses. The life requirements to not die have gone up. So even if it translates to less pew pew you’re still probably going to want a lot of life. Much more than you’d typically chase in S3.
I agree that the wording could be clearer. However, I don’t know of any effect in D4, which applies to part of a hit and not all of it. In that regard, overpower works exactly the same way as critical hits do. Modifiers like golem sacrifice or grasping veins multiply the complete hit as long as the critical condition is met.
You’re likely right on us stacking life and its’ multipliers next season. Damage reduction is rare and bonus hp affixes plentiful. My planned minion build picks up all nodes except for one board. For a blood build, I’d probably grab all of them but I haven’t planned one, yet.
Hey, like I said in my post before I edited, unless they changed it without saying. Last I tested overpower was S2. Did a lot of samples of overpower hits and normal hits as well as a lot with banished lord. The same season I found blood surge did less damage than it should when hitting targets close range, you know the up to 50% extra damage based on enemies hit (more to that).
Actual results indicated that banished lord AND sacrifice damage was not a complete overpower damage adjustment. For instance, if what you say is true then banished lord should in the long term have given a 70% increase of overpower damage (the amount that separates normal hits and overpower hits) but it didn’t. Wasn’t even in the margin of error. That’s what caused me to do more checks with sacrifice on top of the others. Got similar result with different numbers.
My initial thought was that other damage bonuses didn’t work for overpower because the values were large enough and I couldn’t think of anything else. Then someone corrected me, which caused me to retest using blood lance and blood surge. I reformed my opinion that blood surge was just doing less damage than it should but it didn’t account for the larger difference of banished lord and sacrifice in the original test.
I kind of wish I didn’t delete my google sheet just so I could link to you the results. Mine weren’t “supposed to be” because I documented them in game. Though I suppose that wouldn’t matter to you either, you’d say I was wrong or I didn’t test enough. Yeah, hundreds of samples ran more than once definitely not enough.
But like I said in the meaner post I edited before you posted your reply, I wasn’t the only one that indicated maximum life wasn’t as valuable after a certain point. My test just gave me reason to believe it’s because they put those bonuses in wonky spot in the calculation. Other people at some point tested it and came to the same conclusion. Mind you, that’s in a version of the game where you have access to 4 possible affixes so could easily take as many of both that you could. They still came to the conclusion that I did.
I that’s why I said it was silly of you to think you only have to debate me. I’m not the vanguard of the discussion, it’s up to you to prove why you supposedly have some insight that changes the outlook of standard thinking. You need evidence, not some ‘this is what we expect’ speech.
So get to it, why are you right and everyone else is wrong?
(I hope this was worded friendlier than previously)
Ok, so how does it work, then? What’s the actual formula if what I posted is wrong?
I’m using the generally accepted damage formula and posted test results that are within expectations. Do you have proof that the formula is incorrect in some way?
Actual results indicated that banished lord AND sacrifice damage was not a complete overpower damage adjustment.
I went ahead and added a test run with Bone Mage sacrifice to my sheet. What can I say? The data shows a 23% global damage increase.
Well, on PTR I wasn’t completely comfortable curbstomping T100 Pit until eclipsing like 35k HP with a HP elixir on a shadow build. And that build revolved around denying 80%+ of mob actions via dunking CC on the screen. Life was at a premium in a no DR PTR world.
For science I just spent an hour slapping a target dummy with a level 100 character stripped down to the essentials. As far as I can tell bone mage sacrifice and bloodbath are indeed global damage multipliers. Numbers go up too much when each bonus is picked up. By ~1.25x and ~1.35, respectively. As you’d expect if they were global. For both Surge and Lance.
Yeah, same. I could get one shot by a couple of (avoidable) aoe effects at 37k life. My only DR was a 20% Hardened Bones, though. Darkness and Territorial were likely down. Maybe I’ll run Hardened Bones on my amulet and craft Tyrael’s Might for DR. I couldn’t find any info if TM works with minions, though. The shrine effect does so maybe it will, too.
For science
The numbers I got are pretty much spot on 25%, 35% and 68% for both with base line stats as well as with added health.
However, for some reason I’m seeing a larger damage increase from health than I expected. Either I got the excel math wrong somehow or I need more test data. I recorded over 400 hits though and got a ~20% higher damage increase than I “should” have.
I’m not good enough at statistics to work out how large the sample size needs to be given the relatively large spread of 50% from the weapon’s damage range. I wish we had access to test weapons with fixed damage values.
Comfortable was intended to mean small to medium sources of damage stopped being viewed as a dire threat. Some larger sources of damage remained in don’t get hit by this territory. A number of mechanics on bosses. Cloned boss mechanics in particular. It didn’t take long to figure out how that whole concept operates though.
I typically try to avoid major damage mechanics in general. Toward the end of PTR, when life was at it’s high point, I did manage to stand in fire like a super noob and eat a couple from elites and such. It happens from time to time… At that point they evidently moved from insta-gibs to almost insta-gibs with barrier up.
My testing was done with a level 100 character vs a single level 100 target dummy. Stripped down to an item power 15 white Scythe with 1 pt in Hemorrhage, Blood Lance and Blood Surge. Secondary skills were picked up to generate fortify with Hemorrhage and get guaranteed OP’s with Blood Lance and Blood Surge.
I built and maintained full fortify with Hemorrhage and hit the target dummy for an unhealthy amount of time with Blood Surge and Blood Lance to establish a baseline damage range on non-crit OP hits. I picked up Bone Mage sacrifice and Bloodbath individually (pathed to it without grabbing it for the baseline range) and repeated the test to observe the increased range with each.
If the additive damage bonus from fortify wasn’t being multiplied the damage range would increase by a noticably lower amount compared to what you’d get if the multipliers were global. Perhaps a benefit to this approach is it’s based entirely on hitting a target and observing values. Both multipliers are global based on the results.
Initially I did not add life. I can’t think of a logical reason why the additive bonus from fortify would benefit from those multipliers but additional life would not. In the spirit of due diligence I re-ran this test with some additional life (+1,108) with Blood Lance. I got the following results.
Baseline: 17-28 damage
Expected with Bone Sac: 21-35
Observed with Bone Sac: 21-34
Expected with Bloodbath: 23-38
Observed with Bloodbath: 24-39
Expected with Both: 29-47
Observed with Both: 29-47
It’s possible I didn’t capture the entire range in each test but the numbers are so close it certainly looks like both multipliers are global. In fact, I believe most (all?) similarly worded multipliers are global (crit damage stuff, OP stuff, etc.).
Let start with two examples. We have Blighted Aspect on 2h with x240% damage increase for shadow build or 530 essence on bone build which gives the same damage multiplier as for shadow one. Nothing for free - 6 sec. limit on first one and essence utilization to keep it max on second one. Using this analogy to overpower, we get more benefit investing in health pool as of the “penalty” for build/rebuild fortify. Basically I don’t think Blizzard would give something powerful just like that, unless you gonna work for it.
Note here: with the latest patch Dominate Glyph has been nerfed. I will be testing Rank 15 Blood Surge in Season 4, so with more info be also able to provide more feedback on overpower damage results. The change to Dominate could be connected to the introduction of a new unique, namely Cruor’s Embrace gloves. With Supernatural Blood Surge damage multiplier can be in some cases the same as for bone of shadow builds (80% skill itself per 10 enemies, %50 per 5 targets (gloves) and 100% from 2h Cadaverous Aspect per 5 corpses). Having 10 corpses on average (tested on PTR) 200% increase damage on gloves when consuming corpses supported by, I recon 2000% overpower damage, sounds really OP, especially where the tempering system can now increase overpower damage more beyond.
Although, they have been doing better lately.