Currently running dash, cold imbue, poison trap, death trap, flurry and dark shroud.
So many good spells to run on rogue it’s hard to justify a basic skill.
At some point you can drop, but Puncture is actually still nice to guarantee the VUL status.
I run a basic on NMD50+ and bosses. Everywhere else I swap puncture out for dash. This is only because of barber mind you otherwise I’d be running combo points.
Re:High 50+NMs . Is the basic skill mainly kept due to resource or for combo points / damage multiplier?
All the above. But again, mostly for vul status regarding puncture.
Glyph makes everything you do apply vuln. The real reason is combo points.
Glyph only lasts 3 seconds. Puncture’s vulnerable is great for bosses.
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isn’t combo points waste of atk frames? Wouldn’t you get more dps if you spent the atk frames on a core atk instead of basic?
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Combo points are definitely more dps.
Flurry for example, not only do combo points increase damage but they also give you A LOT of attack speed (45%/60% with para) making all future attacks faster. Plus puncture is EXTREMELY fast with virtually no animation.
Rank 5 rapid fire is 5 arrows at 42% or 8 at 59% which is 210% total vs 472% total.
If the attacks were 1 for 1 trades so 3 basic+1 core vs 4 core you might have an argument, but they aren’t. With puncture your attacks have much shorter animations and especially with flurry/rf those attacks take more time so it’s kind of like 2 boosted cores +6 basics vs 3 cores.
Plus can’t forget the 40% damage boost from the dagger on top of everything.
I don’t play TB but there is an uber Lilith video where the guy said he did a bunch of testing and combo points were more dps, and he wasn’t even using condemnation.
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That’ s interesting. You made me do my own testing. So it looks like Puncture is hitting for 3 hits per second. While my flurry is hitting around 2 (x4) hits per second. I tallied up the 3 puncture hits + 1 flurry (total of 1.5secs) = 34917 thats on the tooltip (this includes the combo bonus). Thats 34917/1.5 = 23278 dmg per sec. However in the same time of 1.5 secs I can get 3 (x4) hits. Which is 15439 x 3 = 46317 . Thats 46317 / 1.5 = 30878 dmg per sec.
Condemnation dagger has max of 40% x but the loss of dmg from rubbish stats is around 47%x due to missing vulnerable and crit dmg %. Lets say the unique of 40% x multiplier has recovered that loss of multiplier. However , now the legendary item has an aspect slot, easily place a 20% dmg multiplier. Also, now I have an extra slot and I don’t need combo or inner sight spec, rather I can have Preparation every 15-20secs or so. Probably the only thing that it benefits is energy perhaps. I’m still not sure though if my maths is correct. It would be great if you know of a youtuber that has done these tests.
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Nope, you’re the only one that has done that test and recorded it (seriously, genuinely).
Those results feel about right from my testing as well. But now you have the official data. First to press! Thanks for those stats.
- Combo points are better for Imbue utilization. They also have good synergy with Expectant, Rapid, Might aspects.
- For high level characters with good items and max glyphs, the 40% [x] damage multiplier from Codemnation is significantly better damage-wise than additional crit.dmg/vuln.dmg/dex from another legendary. The additional aspect can close dmg gap, but it will still be only comparable to Condemnation damage-wise, not better.
- For Rapid Fire, not using combo points can lead to much better utilization of Precision passive.
- Puncture is a great source of on-demand Vulnerable and Slow.
Not having the dagger for your tests and only doing 1 round of testing so you miss out on the benefits of the flurry combo attack speed kind of makes your testing not the best tbh.
Without a dummy to test on your can’t do much tbh.
Plus you can pre-charge combo points between packs by hitting the environment or stutter step attacking as you run towards a pack.
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I already posted that people tested on Uber Lilith and found combo points was more dps.
good tip on the combo / imbue utilization. I don’t use any of those 2 offensive aspects as they are tied to basic, use other multipliers to compensate - 50% on barrier and 20% on stun Might is replaced by enshrouding.
- Regarding condemnation, not sure how 40% x multiplier + 4 bad stats equating to around 15-18% is signifacantly better than 69% x multiplier from 4 good stats on a legendary + aspect e.g inner calm @ 5% for 1/2sec tick. . Not being argumentative here, just wondering if I’m calculating the stats incorrectly. (personally, my off hand has 57.78 % x multiplier from the 4 stats).
-Vulnerability wise, yes, probably most reliable - I am using cold imbument / blas trapper for this. - I’ll keep rapid fire in mind when i start exploring more as I most likely need to change this build again when i hit 100. Thanks for the tips but can you enlighten me regarding my calculations on condemnation versus another good roll 4/4 stat legendary. This will help if I decide to respect back to puncture.
You get massive amounts of crit dmg/vulnerable dmg/dex from other items and paragon, it somewhat devalues bonuses on additional 1h legendary weapon. For my rogue, going from Condemnation to almost perfect legendary 1h sword is less than 20% dps increase from better stats when not using combo points.
For example, when you have 200% (and high level crossbow rogues usually have more) Vulnerable dmg bonus, adding 21% from 1h will increase your dps vs vulnerable only by:
100 * ((100 + 200 + 21) / (100 + 200) - 1) = 7%
Critical damage bonus is even more abundant than vulnerable dmg (you can get 400% or more with emeralds and Tempting Fate heart). And it affects dps even less than vulnerable dmg bonus (you don’t have 100% crit chance).
1h sword can provide up to 78 dexterity, 36.7% critical strike damage (innate + affix), 21% vulnerable damage and 29.2% core skill damage. Condemnation also can provide up to 29.2% core skill damage. For simplicity, lets ignore other Condemnation bonuses.
If you (for example) have 800 dexterity, 200% vulnerable damage and 350% critical strike damage, then your non-combo dps will increase from better stats after swapping Condemnation to 1h sword no more than by:
100 * ((100 + 0.1 * (800 + 78)) * (100 + 200 + 21) * (100 + 350 + 36.7) / ((100 + 0.1 * 800) * (100 + 200) * (100 + 350)) - 1) = ~20.7%
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Thanks for this. I completely didn’t realise that adding more vulnerable and crit dmg are additive in the same bucket then multiplied. I re did my dmg increase calculations and its not close to 57.78 as i stated before.
Necesary, no. I replaced my basic with ravagers+shadowstep in season 0 and did great. Fun, action packed, thinkers build.
In season 1 weaving puncture to proc tricks of the trade on every twisting blades and sustain the might aspect has proven very effective. Not needing some of the rarer aspects that make non basic builds tick has made this toon very easy to gear.
Both approaches can be imba, but I think builds using a basic skill feel more complete and focused at the same time while being easier to setup and use.
I’m level 61. It’s going pretty easy. I think puncture is required, if you’re going center your character around vulnerability. Look for vulnerable stats on your weapons and gloves. Spread vulnerability using flurry. The only aspect that you’ll need is the Aspect of Encircling Blades. From there, feel free to build your rogue however you want.
Also the stats aren’t as bad as you seem to think. Core skill damage and damage when dual wield are pretty impactful cuz you likely don’t have those stats anywhere else. Plus attack speed on basic builds the combo points even faster.