I need a codex for my stash. Don’t care if I need to pay for it. My stash is a complete disaster, more than any other game I’ve played. The ability to store legendary aspects in a categorized format, like the codex UI, would be huge.
Adding uniques or legendary aspects to the expansion tiers is a bad idea. Unless they simply mean that they’d be in the game during early access, so you can get them through gameplay. If they’re talking about just handing those items to people for spending cash, that’s not going to be popular.
Various itemized stash tabs are the way to go for additional monetization, imho. Some people won’t like that, but it’s paying for convenience rather than direct power.
Any type of MTX that allows game developers to create a problem that can be fixed with buying something with real money is a horrendous practice. It already feels iffy in F2P games and I find it absolutely unacceptable in a full price game.
Selling EXP boosters opens the door to patching the game so that it becomes an incredible slog to level without buying the booster. Selling gear opens the door to patching the game to make it (almost) inaccessible for people who try to farm them. Selling stash tabs opens the door to cluttering your inventory with more and more things to make it impossible to have enough stash tab space without buying new tabs.
If there has to be MTX, especially within a full price game, it should solely be cosmetic things that have zero impact on any sort of gameplay.
So here’s hoping these are just unfounded rumors. In any case, these kinds of threads and comments at least serve as a place where you can make it 100% clear what kind of MTX practices you find acceptable and not acceptable within a full price game and hope they’ll take the feedback to heart. In my opinion, leave it to cosmetic MTX and nothing else.
Not only do you not understand P2W but you don’t understand that buying an expansion doesn’t instantly increase your player power with no effort.
It absolutely does matter. It is all about the context of what the player is capable of purchasing. P2W has been examined and debated by players for 10+ years since it was first introduced into games. There is a fine line between acceptable MTX and P2W. If you need examples, all you need to do is see what MTX’s have effected past games and changed player behavior.
Long time ago, games would come out in a finished state. You paid 1 price for a complete game. At some point, players loved games so much, they demanded for more content beyond what was available in the base game. The devs relented and said ok but they would have to monetize the content in order to cover development cost. This was acceptable to players. Thus expansions became a thing. Buying an expansion is to cover development cost.
Does an expansion offer further player power? It can sure. In that sense you are saying that it is Paying to Win. The thing with that is that everyone that regularly plays the game buys the same expansion and it comes out around the same time for everyone. In that sense, it is fair and not giving anyone a winning advantage. There are very few people that continue to play a game that has an expansion and not pay for the expansions. Those that don’t buy the expansions don’t play it on a serious level and thus are not likely to care about the level and power gap as they casually play it.
If expansions are P2W in your eyes, then they would be the only acceptable P2W. At least in the Diablo 4 monetization model.
I understand the point you’re making perfectly well, I just don’t buy it because it’s not logically consistent. Power is power, packaging is irrelevant. DLC, Expansion, MTX, whatever. If you’re paying money and it’s getting you more powerful, you’re paying to win. In each case, all players have the same opportunity to buy, or not buy. It’s literally the same thing.
Ah-ha! Now we’re getting somewhere. So it’s not really about power, nor is it about content. It’s about how much money is required. So this is really more of a socio-economic thing, than anything to do with games. Got it.
I played Diablo 1 on launch day. I’m familiar. I remember gamers begging for devs to charge more money if it meant they got more content in their niche genre or 10 year old game, too. Gamers got what they asked for. They got it good and hard.
All I’m asking for here is for someone, anyone, to explain in a logically consistent way, how all players having access to MTX power, is worse than all players having access to DLC/Expansion power. Explain it in a way that I could take it into the boardroom of a AAA developer and not get laughed out of the room. Because that’s who you need to convince, the people in that room. They don’t care about the socio-economic argument because people keep buying their games. They’re giving gamers what they asked for, and the gamers are hoovering it up as fast as they can make it.
You’re right about one thing: Gamers have been arguing about this topic non-stop for 10+ years…and gotten absolutely nowhere. Maybe it’s time to come up with some arguments against MTX that make sense, and don’t have logic failures any CEO could drive a truck through.
An expansion gives you more than power. And it’s not about power, it’s about specifically relative power. With an expansion everyone has the same opportunity. If you didn’t purchase the expansion, you’re with others who also didn’t and thus have the same as they do. At least most of the time that’s true.
Most people will purchase the expansion because it brings them an extended experience. And most people will be annoyed that they have to purchase a glove for for 1.99 when that is something they was supposed to find in the game, thus lessening the experience of the game itself. Some will enjoy it, of course, but an unhappy customer is ten times as influential than a happy one because we listen to complaints much more than we listen to praise. Meaning those that don’t want to pay 1.99 for a glove will be much more influential than those who do want to pay.
Then it’s about the relative power again. Those who has payed will be stronger than those who didn’t pay. That creates dissent among those who didn’t, making them leave perhaps, and spreading the bad word too. That leaves only those who payed. But now they’re unhappy too because they don’t have any higher relative power anymore since only those who payed remain.
That it’s a gameplay thing to have this power or not… Yes, it is, but if the game doesn’t play well without the 1.99 glove many more will be unhappy right from the initial purchase of the game.
Some friends convinced me to check out WoW for the first time in 15 years. It’s naive to think they won’t try to implement the monetization systems they’ve put in wow into Diablo 4 as well.
I’m talking stuff like $200 yearly subscriptions, $20 per character slot, $10 to change your hairstyle, $30 to swap servers (they will add servers just so they can charge you for swapping to a dif one), $50 to buy in game gold, $80 for a unique not yet released.
Blizzard will not stop taking until they are stopped. They will test and push every source of income they can find until the game is taken out back and ‘Warcraft 3 remastered’ into obscurity.
Wrong.
Elderscrolls online- my character is just as strong as someone who’s purchased all the expansions, until it comes to play through and content. Perfected gear still needs to be obtained through gameplay, either through joining a trial group, or paying a guild to run you through- much the same in WoW I’d assume. Shops cosmetics and other non combat junk bar exp
Neverwinter Online- you can grind a campaign for a few weeks, or, you can pay real money to complete that campaign and get all the associated power buffs that were associated with it (this- is pay to win). Oh, let’s not forget the loot boxes, where you can gamble your real money for a shot at ingame power, like armour and weapon enchantments, weapon sets, armour sets, mythic mounts with special abilities that enhance your characters powers, mount sigils that buff your character, the list goes on here. You used to also be able to purchase…. Wait for it…… pre D&D module update when they nuked level caps…… a fully geared level 80 character.
Haha, funny
You’re right they will do what it takes to capitalize. Question is what brings the big money? WoW is different because you have people who’s heavily invested for many years. That audience is the biggest part of WoW, or so I believe. New players don’t come in that much anymore, I think. So… I think they approach that crowd differently.
In some ways yes it is about soci-economics but it is more about creating a decently fair playing field for all players. RPGs were created to escape reality. P2W practices are designed to add an advantage to players with the biggest wallet. Is winning at a game really impressive if you throw the most money at it? No because it requires zero in game effort.
This would require too long of an explanation to be worth convincing just you. Sorry but if you don’t know what the difference is, I can’t explain it to you. You seem like a somewhat intelligent sort though. I am sure you can find the answer yourself if that is what you are seeking. If not then you will only see what you want to see.
I don’t need to convince anyone. I am just giving my feedback on why I will quit if Blizzard introduces P2W in Diablo 4 which was outlined and defined in this post and following responses. If they want to go down that route and see where it leads, then that is their choice. I just won’t be playing anymore.
Because the customer is always right. That is why. CEOs can logic all day long why P2W is good for the customer but it is ultimately up to the purchaser. EA got a big head not too long ago and told players not to buy a game. No one bought it and they ate their words. Customers have all the power here and not the devs. If the customers don’t like what is being sold, it doesn’t make money.
I’ve got no idea what relative power means in this conversation. It seems like another concept that serves only to muddy up a simple issue.
No game in history has had a 100% conversion rate for DLC or expansions. No matter how low the cost, some person out there couldn’t afford it, or choose not to. That person felt the exact same way as someone who couldn’t/chose not to afford MTX. So if this entire argument really boils down to “MTX is bad because it costs more”, I think the game devs will temper their sympathy by refreshing their account balances.
This is on the mark, however I can also make an arguement for subscriptions that while you are subscribed, you gain access to almost all DLCs- again- EsO
I went without a subscription for about 8 months or so, it, was not fun. So, I used my ingame currency to purchase the DLCs I needed. Ended up re subbing anyways, as I could afford the spare change.
If you want to first hand see pay to win, download Neverwinter and take a peek, it’s a free game, but it’s disgustingly monetised to the point that players eventually get bricked into having no choice BUT to buy their way through.
I was done a long time ago when I realized they released an unfinished bugged mess that still isn’t anywhere close to being done. D4 is basically a gotcha game and a souless shell of what Diablo used to be.
Aside from freeware, all games were created for the same reason: To make the developer money.
Maybe one of the most misunderstood aphorisms in the English language. The context of ‘The customer is always right’, is for the business to understand their sales relationship with their customers, to sell what they want, and not sell what they don’t want. Its utility in the hands of said customers is primarily to facilitate them becoming non-customers, to the relief of the business.
A less pithy way to express the same sentiment: The customers money is always right. Games are drowning in MTX. Business has never been better. The customer is always right.
I think you misunderstood that sentence. It is about what is being sold, not whether people can afford it. “Capable” here refers to what is up for purchase.
They just don’t care, period. So why are they remotely relevant for this?
People already have given you logical explanations. No matter if you refuse to understand them or not.
Indeed.
An expansion is basically a new version of the game.
A potion that gives you 100% more XP is not.
Are they still playing, though? I bet they are. Enough to pay a couple devs salary for a game basically in maintenance mode, and give the investors some nice mailbox money each quarter. Who could ask for more.
They’ve done nothing of the sort. All I’ve gotten is the same litany of straw men and distractions people deploy whenever this topic is raised. People can’t even decide what the conversation is about; first it’s power, then it’s content, then it’s about purchasing capability. Can’t even make up your minds what point you’re trying to make. This is because at a fundamental level, your position makes no sense. Power is power. The packaging by which you pay for it doesn’t matter in the slightest.
No, it doesn’t. The person who wrote the sentence acknowledged as much. It means exactly what I responded to it meaning. Some people can’t afford MTX. That’s the gist of it. Was refreshing to see someone be honest about this topic for a change.
Mobile games are drowning in MTX. Business has never been better.
Fixed that for you.
Sure a non-mobile game can add in P2W aspects. The company sees a rise in profits before it dies off. Adding in P2W aspects into non-mobile games, eventually kills the game and the company stops seeing profits as they once were or entirely.
P2W has a firm foothold in mobile because mobile gamers are not gamers in the traditional sense. Most of them never bought a console and played it seriously. If they did, it was Madden or an FPS. Some main stream acceptable game that didn’t invite public ridicule. Since they are not gamers in the traditional sense and don’t know how games were monetized in the past, they are conditioned through psychological tactics to become payers and eventually whales.
For games like Diablo 4, PoE, and other games where traditional gamers put their time and effort into, adding in P2W aspects won’t fly well with those communities. It flies as well as a paper plane. It can increase revenue for a time at the expense of drastically shortening the lifespan of their game.
Is it logical to kill your game for a short term increase in profits or is it better to keep the players happy and milk them with what they consider “acceptable MTX” in the long term? That is up to the company to decide.
