I love this game. Hate me all you want, But this game is amazing

[Jako-1213]

Always happy to hear some positivity on these forums.

D4 has some great things going for it, and it’s a shame the negativity overwhelms the front page.

I figure I’ll get a lot of fun out of it ultimately. I got a lot of fun out of D2, D3, and D2R. D4 is looking to be no different.

Definitely hope they keep fixing and updating though.

[Solar-12532]

wow I thought the wow forums were cringe. When was the last time you got some sunlight bud?

[STRIDER5823-1834]

Thank you! Im sick of all the complaining. Hopefully in a few months those folks will go elsewhere.

[Bodach-1471]

I don’t think the argument is that the game isn’t a clone of Diablo 2 or POE, it just doesn’t have an end game meta loop in place. There are lots of different ideas that could be put in place to install this but there is none.

[Doom-13734]

I love posts like this which claim to speak for a majority of people without actually having an idea of the numbers involved.

This is called making things up and passing them off as factual reality.

You speak for yourself, and no one else.

[Bodach-1471]

Well I think it’s fairly well imply that this is his opinion. It’s shared by a lot of people, for a very substantive reasons, tho.

[GoblinKing-11160]

@Xover-1613

I love this game. Hate me all you want, But this game is amazing

You’re allowed to have an opinion— no one has said otherwise. That being said, your opinion is awful and you have no taste nor standard.

[Jnaathra-1746]

You will hit the same wall the rest did. Just taking you longer to get there.

[ecksdee-11580]

I don’t hate you, I just judge you for having the wrong opinion

[Elesh-11683]

@Bodach-1471

it just doesn’t have an end game meta loop in place

Let me fix that:
it doesn’t have an end game loop that you appreciate or count as such

Which reaffirms the point I’ve made in a few threads:
A lot of people who hate on this game just aren’t self-aware or humble enough to recognize that the game isn’t bad… they’re just not its target audience.

I hate BotW - it was one of the least fun games I’ve ever played. Do I think it is a bad game? No. I am just not its target audience.

It is important to be able to take that self-aware step of ‘is the game the problem or is it just not trying to make me, individually, happy?’

[Bodach-1471]

Objectively incorrect. A meta loop is a repeatable process with a constant carrot on a stick. This game does not posses that beyond leveling legendary gems… er glyphs. That doesn’t offer a loop. Successful ARPGs have an endgame meta loop. This one does not.

[Elesh-11683]

@Bodach-1471

Objectively incorrect.

Subjectively incorrect.

Fixed that for you.

[Bodach-1471]

I’ll quote this to explain what you seem to be missing.

@Deeg-1199

ARPGs are not MMOs, though they’re deceptively similar. The appeal of a true MMO is lasting character growth. You generally have a single “main” character you stick with for months, years, even decades. That character becomes your online identity in an MMO.

ARPG characters are disposable. You build them up quickly, hit significant power spikes, have a bit of fun, then do it all over again. Hence, the progression “cycle”. It’s what makes seasons work. It’s what makes hardcore work. If you remove this cycle and intend players to stick with characters for significantly longer, then you need a significant amount of so called “end game” to keep it entertaining. The secret nobody seems to admit is that ARPG endgame is really just one simple question - did my character succeed or fail. How do you know? Simple, a test. A boss, a dungeon, a cow level, whatever. More than 1 test is even better. Multiple progressively more difficult tests, better still. Spacing them out over the leveling journey gives milestones to reach along the way, and keeps things interesting.

The tests in D2 were fairly simple, but tests nonetheless:

• Nightmare Difficulty
• Hell Difficulty
• Hell Mephisto, Diablo, Baal
• Hell Cows
• Ubers

In D3 there were no tests, just a near-infinite numeric grind

In D4 T3 and T4 are power DROPS that raise baseline gear requirement by 50-100 pts, but they’re not tests. There’s uber lilith, at level 100… which takes an MMO-like amount of time to even reach. Once there, you require broken skill interactions or near-god-like skill and patience to defeat. ARPG tests should require skill, don’t get me wrong, but “everything 1 shots you and there’s a soft-enrage that affects melee more than ranged and and and”… it’s exciting and terrible at the same time.

In PoE there are so many tests at this point, I won’t even bother to list them. PoE is masterful in designing endgame tests suited for an ARPG.

Once you’ve done everything in the game several times over, grinded a bit more power, challenged the tests a few more times… that’s when the true ARPG gameplay loop begins. You go again. Make a new character, using a different build to keep things fresh and interesting.

In D3 and what appears to be the case in D4, that cycle is completely missing. Instead, you simply respec to something new when you get bored. Sure, you could level another character, but getting to 100 all over again? Not worth the time. There’s other classes, so I guess you do like D3 and just make one of each… then you’re done… forever. Or until a new season comes out and they add enough build diversity to bring you back. Even then, it’s gotta be pretty significant build changes to warrant that grind again. Pulverize now deals cold damage with a special aspect (OMGZ I CAN USE FROSTBURNS!?)? Nope, feels the exact same. We’re talking completely new “feeling” builds, or it won’t last.

Another core part of the progression cycle is “progression”. You find things and level up so your character feels stronger. The issue, as it was in D3, is that gear contributes far too much to character power, particularly in the early-mid game. Character level has almost no impact and, in fact, feels worse when you level up in most cases. Level scaling is probably the worst concept introduced to the genre. Mathematically for a level 1 player and a level 100 player to fight alongside eachother and have it feel somewhat even, is that your damage is actually a mathematical formula equating to some % of hp style damage. Meaning a level 1 hits a target, and based on their power rating deals, let’s say, between 20 and 30% of their hp. When a level 100 hits that same mob, the same formula applies, so between 20 and 30% of their hp. Obviously aspects and uniques play a role here, but that’s fundamentally what’s happening. Your power is reduced to some % of mob hp formula. Again, worst… design… ever.

Having to effectively “find your build” through the aspect system is also counter-intuitive to the cycle. When you start a new “disposable ARPG character” you have a build in mind. If you rely on RnG for that build to work, it doesn’t. Aspects (legendaries) should be moved to the tree.

I’ll cut it short (I have so many more things), but ultimately to fix these issues here’s my advice:

1. Time to level should be significantly faster, up to around lvl 90, at which point slow it down exponentially. Most won’t chase the remaining 5-10 levels, but leave it there for the more extreme cases. You had the formula in D2, use that, it worked well IMO.
2. The “end game” needs more tests, bosses or dungeons at level 70, 80, 90. And a level 90 player should be able to take the final test, and pass. Requiring 100 should not be a thing.
3. Remove level-scaling. Simplest would be the torment system (but per-region zone levels would be ideal!). With this, remove the “enemies more than x levels above take less and deal more” mechanic. You deal 1000 damage no matter what level the mob is, though they may have more HP so 1000 vs 10000 matters. If your build is worthy, then at level 50 you could theoretically take on max level content… why the hell not. Probably broken, balance it, but still… you get the idea. Level is just a number, artificial handicaps based on this number feel terrible.
4. Remove legendaries and move aspects to the skill tree. Yup, I said it. Relying on RnG to make a build means respec is mandatory for this system to work. Respec is fundamentally bad for the cycle. This is the only solution that would allow people to make a build from the start that works and grows along the way, as it should be. In conjunction, make respec SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. Rerolling should always be the incentive if you want to try something new, since that’s fundamentally what keeps the game lasting longer. With #1 the time to level vs the respec cost isn’t prohibitive.
5. Add significantly more uniques to the drop pool, and keep them as generic to multiple builds as possible.
6. Allow all classes to find all uniques, regardless of class. It provides incentive to reroll to a new class if you find something super rare for said class. This system inherently synergizes with the cycle.
7. Add significantly more paragon boards and glyphs. There’s no real choice here.
8. Forgot to add this… remove item level requirements based on “found at level” mechanics. Instead, items should have fixed level requirements, ESPECIALLY uniques. I’d go so far as to say Sacred and Ancestral should be removed entirely… they’re just flat +power creep values hard-gating you from T3-T4… nothing more. Balance around that instead.

[Elesh-11683]

Every single bit of that… is subjective. And I disagree with most of it on a personal level.

But you’re welcome to your OPINION that that is all accurate. And I won’t call that opinion incorrect - save your implication that that is objective not subjective.

[Bodach-1471]

So you’re saying this game does have the cycle described in the quote?

[Elesh-11683]

No, I’m saying that cycle is not the ONLY way to have an end-game loop. I’m saying you are implying your vision of what an end-game loop is is absolute, when it is really just the ‘type of end-game loop’ that is personally satisfying to you individually.

[Lazyloaf-1219]

@Elesh-11683

I hate BotW - it was one of the least fun games I’ve ever played. Do I think it is a bad game? No. I am just not its target audience.

Well said

20 characters

[Bodach-1471]

@Elesh-11683

No, I’m saying that cycle is not the ONLY way to have an end-game loop.

I didn’t suggest it was. I said all successful ARPGs have that cycle, and that this objectively does not. To which you told me is subjective. Will it invent some new way to go about motivation in ARPG endgame? Probably not. They also don’t seem to have a clear vision for the game.

[Elesh-11683]

@Bodach-1471

I said all successful ARPGs have that cycle, and that this objectively does not.

It is subjective that ‘all successful ARPGs have that cycle’. Because by many metrics Diablo 3 was successful, yet you claim it doesn’t have that cycle.

[Minerva-1533]

You can really enjoy this game and still understand it has bugs, issues, and overall room for serious improvement. Both of these things can be true at the same time. I am really enjoying the necromancer class despite the fact its the slowest/lowest in dps in terms of build diversity and bugs. Bone necros excluded but thats not my playstyle.

Just because people have criticisms about the game does not mean they don’t enjoy the game they just want it to be BETTER and over time the novelty starts to wear off a bit so the issues come to the forefront of our attention. Human beings are far more likely to notice, recall, and communicate things that don’t meet their expectations of reality. Most of the positive elements or aspects of the game that meet their expectations will be taken for granted because that just how our brains work. We identify and want to fix problems. If it ain’t broke… dont fix it.