I love this game. Hate me all you want, But this game is amazing

[Elesh-11683]

@Bodach-1471

Objectively incorrect.

Subjectively incorrect.

Fixed that for you.

[Bodach-1471]

I’ll quote this to explain what you seem to be missing.

@Deeg-1199

ARPGs are not MMOs, though they’re deceptively similar. The appeal of a true MMO is lasting character growth. You generally have a single “main” character you stick with for months, years, even decades. That character becomes your online identity in an MMO.

ARPG characters are disposable. You build them up quickly, hit significant power spikes, have a bit of fun, then do it all over again. Hence, the progression “cycle”. It’s what makes seasons work. It’s what makes hardcore work. If you remove this cycle and intend players to stick with characters for significantly longer, then you need a significant amount of so called “end game” to keep it entertaining. The secret nobody seems to admit is that ARPG endgame is really just one simple question - did my character succeed or fail. How do you know? Simple, a test. A boss, a dungeon, a cow level, whatever. More than 1 test is even better. Multiple progressively more difficult tests, better still. Spacing them out over the leveling journey gives milestones to reach along the way, and keeps things interesting.

The tests in D2 were fairly simple, but tests nonetheless:

• Nightmare Difficulty
• Hell Difficulty
• Hell Mephisto, Diablo, Baal
• Hell Cows
• Ubers

In D3 there were no tests, just a near-infinite numeric grind

In D4 T3 and T4 are power DROPS that raise baseline gear requirement by 50-100 pts, but they’re not tests. There’s uber lilith, at level 100… which takes an MMO-like amount of time to even reach. Once there, you require broken skill interactions or near-god-like skill and patience to defeat. ARPG tests should require skill, don’t get me wrong, but “everything 1 shots you and there’s a soft-enrage that affects melee more than ranged and and and”… it’s exciting and terrible at the same time.

In PoE there are so many tests at this point, I won’t even bother to list them. PoE is masterful in designing endgame tests suited for an ARPG.

Once you’ve done everything in the game several times over, grinded a bit more power, challenged the tests a few more times… that’s when the true ARPG gameplay loop begins. You go again. Make a new character, using a different build to keep things fresh and interesting.

In D3 and what appears to be the case in D4, that cycle is completely missing. Instead, you simply respec to something new when you get bored. Sure, you could level another character, but getting to 100 all over again? Not worth the time. There’s other classes, so I guess you do like D3 and just make one of each… then you’re done… forever. Or until a new season comes out and they add enough build diversity to bring you back. Even then, it’s gotta be pretty significant build changes to warrant that grind again. Pulverize now deals cold damage with a special aspect (OMGZ I CAN USE FROSTBURNS!?)? Nope, feels the exact same. We’re talking completely new “feeling” builds, or it won’t last.

Another core part of the progression cycle is “progression”. You find things and level up so your character feels stronger. The issue, as it was in D3, is that gear contributes far too much to character power, particularly in the early-mid game. Character level has almost no impact and, in fact, feels worse when you level up in most cases. Level scaling is probably the worst concept introduced to the genre. Mathematically for a level 1 player and a level 100 player to fight alongside eachother and have it feel somewhat even, is that your damage is actually a mathematical formula equating to some % of hp style damage. Meaning a level 1 hits a target, and based on their power rating deals, let’s say, between 20 and 30% of their hp. When a level 100 hits that same mob, the same formula applies, so between 20 and 30% of their hp. Obviously aspects and uniques play a role here, but that’s fundamentally what’s happening. Your power is reduced to some % of mob hp formula. Again, worst… design… ever.

Having to effectively “find your build” through the aspect system is also counter-intuitive to the cycle. When you start a new “disposable ARPG character” you have a build in mind. If you rely on RnG for that build to work, it doesn’t. Aspects (legendaries) should be moved to the tree.

I’ll cut it short (I have so many more things), but ultimately to fix these issues here’s my advice:

1. Time to level should be significantly faster, up to around lvl 90, at which point slow it down exponentially. Most won’t chase the remaining 5-10 levels, but leave it there for the more extreme cases. You had the formula in D2, use that, it worked well IMO.
2. The “end game” needs more tests, bosses or dungeons at level 70, 80, 90. And a level 90 player should be able to take the final test, and pass. Requiring 100 should not be a thing.
3. Remove level-scaling. Simplest would be the torment system (but per-region zone levels would be ideal!). With this, remove the “enemies more than x levels above take less and deal more” mechanic. You deal 1000 damage no matter what level the mob is, though they may have more HP so 1000 vs 10000 matters. If your build is worthy, then at level 50 you could theoretically take on max level content… why the hell not. Probably broken, balance it, but still… you get the idea. Level is just a number, artificial handicaps based on this number feel terrible.
4. Remove legendaries and move aspects to the skill tree. Yup, I said it. Relying on RnG to make a build means respec is mandatory for this system to work. Respec is fundamentally bad for the cycle. This is the only solution that would allow people to make a build from the start that works and grows along the way, as it should be. In conjunction, make respec SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. Rerolling should always be the incentive if you want to try something new, since that’s fundamentally what keeps the game lasting longer. With #1 the time to level vs the respec cost isn’t prohibitive.
5. Add significantly more uniques to the drop pool, and keep them as generic to multiple builds as possible.
6. Allow all classes to find all uniques, regardless of class. It provides incentive to reroll to a new class if you find something super rare for said class. This system inherently synergizes with the cycle.
7. Add significantly more paragon boards and glyphs. There’s no real choice here.
8. Forgot to add this… remove item level requirements based on “found at level” mechanics. Instead, items should have fixed level requirements, ESPECIALLY uniques. I’d go so far as to say Sacred and Ancestral should be removed entirely… they’re just flat +power creep values hard-gating you from T3-T4… nothing more. Balance around that instead.

[Elesh-11683]

Every single bit of that… is subjective. And I disagree with most of it on a personal level.

But you’re welcome to your OPINION that that is all accurate. And I won’t call that opinion incorrect - save your implication that that is objective not subjective.

[Bodach-1471]

So you’re saying this game does have the cycle described in the quote?

[Elesh-11683]

No, I’m saying that cycle is not the ONLY way to have an end-game loop. I’m saying you are implying your vision of what an end-game loop is is absolute, when it is really just the ‘type of end-game loop’ that is personally satisfying to you individually.

[Lazyloaf-1219]

@Elesh-11683

I hate BotW - it was one of the least fun games I’ve ever played. Do I think it is a bad game? No. I am just not its target audience.

Well said

20 characters

[Bodach-1471]

@Elesh-11683

No, I’m saying that cycle is not the ONLY way to have an end-game loop.

I didn’t suggest it was. I said all successful ARPGs have that cycle, and that this objectively does not. To which you told me is subjective. Will it invent some new way to go about motivation in ARPG endgame? Probably not. They also don’t seem to have a clear vision for the game.

[Elesh-11683]

@Bodach-1471

I said all successful ARPGs have that cycle, and that this objectively does not.

It is subjective that ‘all successful ARPGs have that cycle’. Because by many metrics Diablo 3 was successful, yet you claim it doesn’t have that cycle.

[Minerva-1533]

You can really enjoy this game and still understand it has bugs, issues, and overall room for serious improvement. Both of these things can be true at the same time. I am really enjoying the necromancer class despite the fact its the slowest/lowest in dps in terms of build diversity and bugs. Bone necros excluded but thats not my playstyle.

Just because people have criticisms about the game does not mean they don’t enjoy the game they just want it to be BETTER and over time the novelty starts to wear off a bit so the issues come to the forefront of our attention. Human beings are far more likely to notice, recall, and communicate things that don’t meet their expectations of reality. Most of the positive elements or aspects of the game that meet their expectations will be taken for granted because that just how our brains work. We identify and want to fix problems. If it ain’t broke… dont fix it.

[G3N0C1DE-1775]

@Desper-1566

303 hours played

My guy this is almost 12 hours a day for a month straight. You live for this game your opinion might be a bit biased.

[Talima-2840]

@Xover-1613

Now yes I am a casual Dad Gamer (Just made it to WT4) but I am playing the game with people who play way more than me and they feel just like I do. There is so much to experience in this game if you take your time. Side quests that are really fun to do, and add to the story. And most importantly I can play how I want when I do not have the stress of having to get to max level as soon as I can and min\Max my build

People talk about the renown grind but its not that bad if you enjoy doing quests and exploring. And yes I am a hard core ARPG fan and that is against the norm for ARPG’s but I really enjoy it.

Hey , im 50 and slightly more casual than you im 62 and still in wt 3, unfortunately i dont have a group of people to play with and has been pointed out playing with flaming bags of dog poop is fun “with friends” so ima gonna have to ask you , which? what side quests are interesting? the exorcist one was well acted and voiced but was mechanically just go to a place kill an elite.

not saying you cant enjoy it im just wondering if that fact your doing it with friends might be doing the heavy lifting not the game because ive been doing the same side quests and well that renown grind broike me on the 3rd area because these quests… thre real low effort fetch 10 boar asses level of tedious or the ones im finding are.

and as you do admit , this isnt diablo i wasnt spending days doing side quests for renowon in d1 2 or 3 i was delving dungeons looting exciting impactful items that changed how my skills worked and reaching new tiers or spells and abilities.

its good your having fun though, just wish a few more of us were

[JeanFrancois-1217]

You have to work up the Nightmare Dungeon levels for a purpose. There is replayability there as there’s a challenge, which makes leveling glyphs and hoping for items significant. I’m still early into it so I don’t know how well they thought out the design (bad indications from the streamers I have watched) but you can find some worthwhile gameplay there, at least for a grind.

[Derpalator-1149]

Nice man. I like this game a lot too. 8/10 launch product. I played well past 100. Probably ~225 hours now.

The story, side quests, NPCs are all fantastic. I’m more of a DPS meter Daniel type gamer though.

As a GG GIGACHAD eSports gamer, I enjoyed the entire progression. There are 2 pinnacle challenges that are no guaranteed clear, even at 100 with perfect gear. No other ARPG offered this kind of endgame at launch, and as an efficiency only elitist I’ve had a blast failing to beat the hardest stuff. I cleared an 85 today.

There’s a list of stuff I want them to work on, but their response has been excellent so far. I feel good about the future of this game, even as a spreadsheet sweatlord.

[Singularity-11212]

The game is fantastic. My fav game.

[Athelwynn-1228]

The game is fun as long as you play a build that Blizzard wants you to play. If you want to play a build that doesn’t fit their narrative then you’ll struggle hard in wt4. For example a Lightning Sorc, Fire Sorc, Summoner Necro, and Whirlwind Barb. The “Play your way” is just saying you can play how you want but that doesn’t guarantee you’ll succeed. Just wish there were more useful builds in the game and the game had more endgame content before Season 1 launches.

[Bonhomme-11200]

Come back after you’ve been in W4 for awhile. You’ll hate the game too. There are no chase items and it’s bland.

@Xover-1613

People talk about the renown grind but its not that bad if you enjoy doing quests and exploring.

I hate the side quests. That’s why I hate grinding renown. exploring is fun, but that doesn’t help much.

@Xover-1613

You go around the forums and on reddit and its just people complaining and dunking on this game but these are all people who rushed to end game and mad the end game loop is not there cup of tea.

I only play ARPGs for the end game. It’s complete trash so far.

@Xover-1613

But the cold truth is for the majority of us, this is exactly what we wanted

You wanted a short single player campaign game? I thought we wanted a Diablo game? Diablo isn’t even in the game, lol.

@OneButtnDash-1677

the masses love the game

That’s because they just do campaign and move to the next game. The campaign was surprisingly fun. The end game is a pile of crap though. It sucks for me, because I play these games for end game.

[Zeltak-2770]

What’s so hard to understand? It’s not cringe at all to be a dad. It’s cringe going “i’M A dAd gAmEr”. What the hell does being a dad have to do with you gaming? This obsession with projecting identity politics into literally everything comes only from Americans.

[Irres-1198]

I like the game a lot. I just wish the class balance was not so off.
But on Sorc it is fun.
The other 3 classes I have seem to be playing a much easier game. I don’t have a barb.

[Onda-21777]

hey friend question, what level are you?

[lusshtgarel-2868]

So far 106 people only in this thread alone.