Glyph leveling concept: level up glyph nodes instead (updated in S4)

PC General Discussion
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:stop_sign: Outline added, May 2. :stop_sign: (incorporates feedback)

:stop_sign: Update after Season 4 changes, July 17. :stop_sign: (incorporates feedback)

:mega:THE PROBLEM:

  • Natural power progression means maxed-out glyphs.
  • Glyph leveling is confined to one type of activity:
    • this one activity becomes extremely tedious very quickly.
  • A contributor to this extreme tedium is the allocation of xp at the stand:
    • it feels unsatisfying because you don’t see results for “levels” 1-14 and 16-20… they’re fake;
      • this makes the preceding NMD runs feel like a waste of time… and the actual effort of manually clicking xp into the glyph feels like a waste of time. (Psychology!)
      • placebo of “fake” levels between 1 & 15 and between 15 & 21 only works superficially. (Psychology!)
  • In practical terms, glyphs should be leveled up sequentially during the 50-100 window, almost at the exclusion of other activities, for efficiency:
    • so there’s no practical avoidance of this tedium.

:mega:A SOLUTION:

  • :sparkles:Move glyph xp from glyphs to glyph nodes:

  • the xp is persistent: if the board is removed, the xp stays on the board, it just gets ‘paused’;

    • VERSION ONE :hatching_chick: (minimal): glyph node xp still confined to NMD’s & the like (e.g. The Pit), but is gained passively from killing mobs & the completion bonus;
    • VERSION TWO :dragon_face: (bold): glyph nodes passively gain xp in any activity that grants xp (kill the fomo), but reduced rate outside NMD’s & the like (e.g. The Pit).
    • VERSION ZERO :zzz: (glyph node XP too scawy :fearful:): glyph XP pool, transferable glyph XP that can be reallocated to other glyphs later. This sidesteps the more transformative “glyph node XP” core change, and doesn’t add any variety to the loop other than glyph flexibility, so I think it’s less interesting. But it does reduce tedium (and obviates the stand). Credit Cerveyio for “reallocation” idea.

  • :sparkles:Change the UI accordingly:

    • get rid of the stand (it florking sucks and is probably holding you back creatively);
      • (meanwhile, nix the “level up” bar animation in a hotfix asap)
    • on-screen ding alerts at 15 and 21;
    • on NMD completion (assuming a chunk of glyph node xp for completion) glyph node xp progress bars fade in & out on-screen - but only in dungeons;
    • point to a glyph node to see its progress;
      • (is it true you still can’t point to an embedded glyph to see its level? What is going on here?)
    • get creative with color schemes, pulsing filaments connecting glyph nodes, distinct from the trail of activated nodes, etc.
      :dragon_face: :small_red_triangle_down:

  • :sparkles:If VERSION TWO… Make NMD’s & the like (e.g. The Pit) the “totally bestest” source for this xp (so NMD’s stay in the mix);

    • NMD monster scaling/density makes them optimal for leveling anyway;
    • start dropping duplicate glyphs in NMD’s… pickup = bonus glyph node xp (variant of MageCraft’s idea):
      • make these auto-pickup ofc, unlike surplus construct stones in S3. :upside_down_face:
      • (retire the blue glyphs).

  • :sparkles:A glyph node could start gaining xp from the time it’s activated… OR:

    • a glyph node could start gaining xp from the time the board is attached (this is where ‘filaments’ communicate what’s going on);
    • add a moderate glyph node xp bonus for each additional board attached.
      • ‘filaments’ pulse a bit more intensely? …color shift?

  • :sparkles:Add a mechanism (repeatable questline?) which rewards a transfer of a level 21 glyph node’s full xp to an under-21 glyph node:

    • this benefits alt builds;
    • make this reward repeatable, stackable, and usable account-wide (benefits alt characters);
    • could be a unique/legendary mat, is placed in materials inventory;
    • only a level 21 glyph node is eligible for ‘draining’ this way, and it’s drained completely;
    • any under-21 glyph node is eligible to receive the xp transfer.
    • :sparkles: possible candidate: :crossed_swords: T4 strongholds :crossed_swords:… could act as a soft cap, slightly incentivizing players to level up alts for the “glyph node reset” reward if they use it up… & restores the utility of strongholds;
      • → T4 strongholds are now “souped-up”, possibly level 154+ mobs, etc.
      • → in T4, an already-completed stronghold has the option to reset (via NPC on the outskirts?), yielding a “souped-up” version of the stronghold;
      • → “souped-up” strongholds can only be completed once per character;
        • or… complete all strongholds to unlock “infinite resets”.
    • :sparkles: possible candidate: :crossed_swords: sigil affix (upon completion) :crossed_swords:
      • → maybe T100 only;
      • → boooriiiiing.
    • reward mat could be a fragment… combining 3 fragments yields the cost of transfer;
      • 15+ strongholds → upto 5 transfers earned per character;
        • or… infinite resets once you clear all strongholds
      • Sigil route = infinitely repeatable per character.

:mega:WHAT IT SOLVES:

  • Disrupts the tedium, with smoother NMD runs that let us at least skip the stand (:hatching_chick: or :zzz: ) if not venture more into the game world with less fomo (:dragon_face:).
  • Removes the mind-numbing & time-wasting ritual of manually “fake-leveling up a glyph” for literally no result over and over and over (an unambiguously tedious & forced activity)… until that one time we get ‘result’… times 2… times 6 or 7… plus alt builds… times however many characters you level up in a season. (Psychology!)
    • also removes: interacting with the stand every run, manual allocation of glyph xp every run, tracking unequipped glyphs, planning glyph xp distribution, fretting over glyph selection, etc. (Psychology!)
  • Encourages build experimentation (since glyphs are now more swappable).
  • Will inspire me to max out… gulp… 4 or 5 characters/builds per season without dying of boredom! (seriously, grind loop tedium is what stands in my way)

:mega:WHAT IT DOES NOT DO:

  • Does NOT make NMD’s obsolete (see above).
  • Does NOT (necessarily) speed up “glyph” leveling, since “glyph node xp rate”, just like “glyph xp rate”, is calibrated separately from other xp sources, and can be slowed down or sped up arbitrarily;
    • the point is to reduce tedium (see above).
  • Does NOT remove depth (what’s “deep” about clicking a stand monsieur?)
    • may even spawn new & bizarre leveling builds, since glyphs are more swappable.
    • may even spawn subtle new in-build variants for different encounters, since glyphs are more swappable.

:mega:WHAT IT ADDS THAT’S TRULY NEW:

  • An intuitive, hassle-free system for prepping paragon boards for alt builds, which also benefits alt characters.
  • A “comfortable middle” between the status quo & making glyph levels account-wide.

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:arrow_down_small: Season 4 update :arrow_down_small: (incorporated above)

July

Old draft:

Updated the outline with several changes, suggested 2 different tracks, suggested a sigil option for the reset reward, formatted for legibility, etc.

To reiterate: I don’t care if they DOUBLE or TRIPLE the grind. I don’t care if they effectively lock 15-21 behind T100 content. It just needs to be more engaging.

Retool the system itself because it’s tedious & doesn’t seem to have been thoroughly tested for repeatability.

Thought I’d level up 4 characters & post an update… took a month longer than I expected, because of tedium. By the 4th char (now level 21 glyphs, but under 100) I’m jumping into games, and soon quitting. I have 2 stash tabs of boss mats, but I specifically wanted to test the tedium of leveling up (+ glyphs) multiple characters.

Glyphs were way faster this time, b/c you boosted xp twice (sigils + battle pass). So you tacitly acknowledged the tedium of glyph leveling, and… shortened it. Probably the wrong approach. Any “must-do” content needs to be engaging. So my OP is still relevant. I’m sure devs can come up with many more interesting progression loops than I did. NMD’s in their current state, ain’t it.

I think there’s only one way to attack this as a dev: play the game. Play it straight. Embrace the core philosophy (class fantasy, class variety, power progression, with skills + paragon intrinsic to those) and set reasonable minimum goals: every dev should be leveling up at least 2 classes per cycle, to full 21 glyphs, from level 1, no shortcuts, no power boosts - including solo play. I got bored of this formula by season 2… how are you not (unless you’re boosting)?

Like a proper n00b, I discovered a practical way to (part-way) mitigate the tedium of the stand:

  1. select a glyph
  2. click XP button and…
  3. immediately switch to another glyph
  4. repeat

…you don’t have to wait for that stupid bar to fill up. Wow. So the bar filling up is just there to be stared at & admired? Please get rid of this.

The stand still just plain sucks. The core reason glyph leveling is tedious is because the levels mean nothing… except “15” and “21”. So they’re fake levels. It’s really just “level 2” and “level 3”, let’s be real. And on top of this… you have us stare at a level-up animation? For fake levels.

Please redesign this whole interaction.

The core thread suggestions are still an improvement IMO:

  • One or more additional sources of glyph (node) XP… could be minimized by making NMDs more engaging, but why not at least Pits? Pits are supposedly T100+ as is, and there’s a boss room.
  • Get rid of the stand, it might be core to the tedium. (Change the animation in a hotfix asap… the way you tweaked the MW animation, which is still unnecessarily tedious.)
    • (Instead of forced manual XP allocation at the end of NMD, consider a persistent XP pool to be allocated whenever, from wherever. Ofc that would obviate the stand… good - kill it!)
  • A way to re-assign glyph (node) XP. My idea = challenges resulting in a unique mat that can be used to transfer a single level 21 glyph node’s XP fully to an under-21 glyph node (see OP). Cerveyio suggests a straightforward glyph XP “respec”, from glyph to glyph… I find that boring, but I’ll add it. I think glyph node XP would both revolutionize the system & make it more interesting, while simultaneously streamlining the loop itself & making it less tedious… it adds more of what’s good (gameplay variety) and removes more of what’s bad (clicking buttons to add fake levels to a glyph).

Please note: these & other suggestions can be independent of one another, and there’s overlap (e.g. whether you switch to glyph node XP, or you don’t).

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:arrow_down: :ninja: Original post :ninja: :arrow_down: (ignore)

OOP

Glyph leveling is dispiriting. I suggested before that leveling up glyphs should work like skill points or paragon points: store up the xp for me & let me distribute it at my leisure from wherever (get rid of the stand). This is a no-brainer imo, and only needs a UI tweak.

But the glyph leveling itself is mind-numbing. While the devs think of ways to make it interesting (adding ways to level up glyphs, adding glyph xp bonuses etc) here’s a basic idea which I think would help fix the underlying problem: level up glyph nodes instead of glyphs.

Make it so when I unlock a glyph node, from that point onward - regardless of what other sources of xp or xp bonuses you implement - the glyph node itself is gaining “glyph node xp” & leveling up. This frees up your imagination for endgame activities that are useful to us. You want us to focus slightly more on NMD for “glyph node leveling”? That’s where “bonus glyph node xp” comes in. Maybe even as a sigil affix.

A glyph node dings 15? Have an alert pop up. A glyph node dings 21? Have an alert pop up. Want to see level-up progress of a node? Point to it. It should show a progress bar in the info pane. Easy.

It does NOT feel rewarding or a good use of time to pump up each glyph manually, the xp always feels like I’ve wasted my time, and feels worse for having forced me into a NMD loop. You want us to do other activities more often? Here’s an easy way to diversify our grind, even before you expand the endgame. I’d still do NMD’s for the xp bonuses, “glyph node xp” bonuses(*), +chance for unique drops, etc. - whatever you can think up. But I’d be doing other activities without the casual-gamer dread of “shortchanging my glyphs if I’m doing anything other than NMDs”.

I think this is a no-brainer at this point.

WHAT ABOUT WHEN I SWITCH OUT PARAGON BOARDS & THEN SWITCH BACK? The game should preserve the level of the re-implemented board’s node. Easy.

IT WILL ALTER MIN-MAX STRATEGIES ON MAXROLL! Yes, but that happens anyway every season & even mid-season. This way there’s no more need to juggle leveling order of glyphs, as all glyphs are now equal - only the node-leveling order matters. This should make for slightly more streamlined, less tedious (some of them) guide strategies.

(* “Glyph node xp bonuses” would add stealth diversification to the grind. Right now, the balance of paragon-to-glyph grind is arbitrary & depends on playstyle. Some dev thought this was a good way to steer us into “activity lanes”, and it sucks balls. Bad dev. More is better: by letting our grind decisions also extend to “glyph nodes”, you give us the freedom to diversify our playstyle. Incentivize me to do NMDs, for example, if I want to “boost” glyph(node) xp rate. Don’t lock glyph(node) xp itself behind a specific activity: it’s too core to character progression/power for such lane mentality. That’s just bad game design. But it’s easy to fix.)

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I don’t know, the whole glyph and paragon board, as a system itself, seems outdated to me. I know it’s here because of it’s legacy in arpgs but it’s 2024, surely we can come up with something more creative.

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It would still be a “tree” with “things” in it that level up. The tedium comes from how the “things” level up imo. Original post suggests a specific solution to the problem, and one which I think is easy to implement. Just requires a dev snapping out of a core concept (leveling up glyphs) to which they became wedded before testing how its implementation feels on multiple characters over time.

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I like the paragon board for the most part to the problem is only being able to lvl them up through 2 avenues vaults/nmd they should open that up to save on tedium which they are trying ideas like vaults AoZ they will figure it out.

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Added:

For a sense of “progress” at the end of a NMD, I suggest fade-in progress bars for each activated glyph node (bars are stacked atop each other) - they show up on screen, fill up with an amount of xp, fade out.

At all other times, as glyph nodes gain xp passively (like character xp, and from any xp activity, starting as soon as the node is activated), we’d merely get ding alerts at 15 & 21. The fade-in/fade-out progress bars would be NMD-specific, for instant feedback to prompt us to keep going or not. NMD’s would be appropriate for things like “bonus glyph node xp”, hence there’d still be incentive to do them. They’d remain a place to target farm (glyph node xp).

The current glyph system is just tedious & restrictive & not satisfying. Really the main thing you’d have to innovate is the labeling system for those glyph nodes, for alerts and such. Otherwise this revamp should be easy to implement, isn’t too radical, would feel more streamlined & less time-wasty, doesn’t remove an iota of depth (possibly shaves off a couple hours of NMD runs per char, on average), and frees us up to do other things - to switch up our routines. Dooo eeeeeeeeeet!

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I must admit I would like glyphs to lvl from all sources but I’d say ppl would probably drop doing NMDs if blizz did this… which leaves a whole new problem what do they do to make NMDs worthwhile.

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Power leveling: glyph(node) bonus xp could be exclusive to NMD. Also, bc of monster density & xp/difficulty scaling, NMD would still be the place to power level 50-100. We currently have ok sources of char xp outside of dungeons… but NMDs are still attractive for faster xp grind. We don’t have anything for glyph(node) xp yet, but if it existed outside of dungeons, NMD would still be attractive for faster glyph grind.

Also… glyphs themselves only drop inside dungeons.

Also… things like +chance to drop uniques, which would be the place to do it while leveling.

That’s 3 simultaneous reasons to still do NMDs while leveling. I simply resent being forced to do 150-200 of them per char, or whatever the average is. If I’m doing the other content Blizzard wants me to do, it never fails that I’ll have decent gear and be nearing 100, but my glyphs are nowhere near optimal. That’s unbalanced. The NMD grind is too dull & unnecessarily so. (Soooooo easy to fix, jfc Blizz.)

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Passively No thanks.

Glyph Xp creates a chase and reason to push, you can do it easily and dont need to push overly hard and if you hunt gear and have good board and apsect, it’s not really a choir, I waited and now i can farm comfortable and get decent Xp.

People call D4 shallow, its really not, there are multiple ways to achieve power progression and beyond whatever a glyph juggle is, i don’t have issues with glyphs or levelling them.

Gems in D3 are worse and more tedious. What variety did Rifts have? so D4 is doing good, and it will build like it has already as new content gives us more levelling options and variety.

I also don’t rely on glyphs as a source of power early on, its one way to do it, but i prefer to get more xp per run and level a glyph that way i have 5 above 15 and less than 100 runs most likely, there are ways, just means you wont be done in a week i guess, but also means you dont have to grind and burnout from the game, to each there own, but why should they make it passive based on one strategy to levelling

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I have 3 Rogues and it was a long tedious road to get every single glyph to 21 (Even got the magic ones to 11). I’m actually 3 1/2 glyphs away from finishing on my 3rd rogue, I’ll be finished this week.

I’m looking forward to pushing higher NM dungeons without having to level those things. I may have not done them efficiently as I was leveling them as fast as I could, trying to speed run on lower level 50’s. I would consider this part to be the most unfun part of the game, that’s why I tried to get it out of the way before progressing my characters. I’m looking forward to farming Helltides and bosses finally.

Season 4 I’ll be going with a Sorc for the first time so again, I’ll do the same as fast as I can to get them done first.

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Passively No thanks.

Glyph Xp creates a chase and reason to push, you can do it easily and dont need to push overly hard and if you hunt gear and have good board and apsect, it’s not really a choir, I waited and now i can farm comfortable and get decent Xp.

People call D4 shallow, its really not, there are multiple ways to achieve power progression and beyond whatever a glyph juggle is, i don’t have issues with glyphs or levelling them.

Gems in D3 are worse and more tedious. What variety did Rifts have? so D4 is doing good, and it will build like it has already as new content gives us more levelling options and variety.

I also don’t rely on glyphs as a source of power early on, its one way to do it, but i prefer to get more xp per run and level a glyph that way i have 5 above 15 and less than 100 runs most likely, there are ways, just means you wont be done in a week i guess, but also means you dont have to grind and burnout from the game, to each there own, but why should they make it passive based on one strategy to levelling

The idea isn’t to eliminate the “chase” (I’m pretty sure you’re in a tiny minority who enjoys the “glyph to 21” NMD grind… for most humans it’s extremely dull after the first char, and I’d bet money on that). The idea is to add more sources of “glyph xp”. My specific suggestion is a reduced glyph(node) xp gain outside of NMD (& transferring the xp from glyphs to glyph nodes). You do the activity, you see the result. Nothing passive about it.

What I described as passive is the actual allocation of the xp. It’s such a monotonous activity, and such a proportionally small amount of glyph xp per run, the physical act of clicking the stand & clicking to allocate the xp is an unsatisfying ritual. “Passive” here just means: I did the NMD, now give me my xp, and distribute it directly onto my glyph nodes (thus skipping the tedious action of adding a piddling amount of xp manually).

But the main point was: more sources of glyph(node) xp. Until they fix the “lacks endgame” problem, that problem currently boils down to “I’m doing NMD all the time”. I’m doing NMD (almost) all the time because that’s where glyphs level up. Quick & obvious fix for that is: give us more sources of glyph xp… and put the bonus xp in NMDs - giving power levelers several reasons to keep mindlessly grinding NMDs.

To compare it to a tedious D3 activity highlights the attitude problem. I’m for improving things, not comparing things to other tedious, mind-numbing activities & telling myself at-least-it’s-not-that. Blizzard can do better. IMO my specific design idea = better, but really anything more creative than the status quo would be better, and 90% of players, even grindy players, would agree if they could try it out. I’d put money on that too.

Words like “easily” and “hard” miss the point entirely. The adjectives I’m looking for are “fun”, “interesting”, and sometimes “clever”. Those are adjectives game designers should strive for.

Added: not to praise another tedious grindy activity, but D3 gems leveling is a gamble (yay or nay); the power potential is incrementally & continually improving (not locked behind a threshold at 15 and 21) thus you are constantly benefitting from the grind; unlocking the second power is done long before the grind feels tedious; and there are other ways to augment gear (the main purpose of leveling up gems). Variety. So the comparison actually makes NMD-glyph grind (in a game with practically no crafting) look worse.

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Seems to me some of the stratergy is over reying on glyph power to level glyphs, it’s one way to do it, i much prefer to take adavatge of seasonal power hunt uniques and then push higer n/m to level glyphs much faster, then that feeds into n/m pushing.

Not shocked if i am minority as a large group copy paste the formula of like minded people or guides, Suite yourself, but that is a tedious way to play imo, it might be the fastest, but trade off is the grindiest, so not for me. What strikes me is the thinking its the only strategy or path, it’s not imo. That is the often overlooked depth when i read D4 complaints or looks a what i see as wasteful board progression with rare node bonuses being left behind and a hyper focus on glyphs, may have been the only viable way when resist was broken and stats where broken, but as the game polishes the systems the more paths will open up to the options boards offer power gains and with gearing and items glyph grinding doesn’t have to be the only path.

not going to bother reading if you are going to contradict yourself. Sorry, i just don’t agree or fully see your point of view. But fair enough have your say.

Again why push me into a black sheep, that just says to me your point is so weak and self centred that you need to try and trivialise my point of view. Its a expression of ideas and opinions, not need to put me in a minority circle to make your point. Adding further to me having no care about what you have to say if you need to mob mentality to make a discussion, all becasue you fail to play the game without a guide. There is other ways to get the power you need to make glyph Xp less of a choir, easier runs and vaults make that even easier, you can speed far these smaller dungeons ignore traps if you like and get to the vault room skipping most mobs, don’t need level 21 glyphs to beat duriel and farm for uniques so getting to 21 is not something i rely on or spend hours grinding. If thats what you do perhaps that is more the issue at play.

More ways to get Xp is fine for variety, beast in the ice gives XP and i am sure other events and stuff will follow. Passively earning it though is not really making things interesting imo, its doing the opposite, i don’t want a arpg to make me feel like i am a bot farming monsters for loot, i want to engage with systems also.

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I wouldn’t mind some kind of Passive Glyph XP.

What Season 3 has shown us with Construct Tuning and Governing stones is this:

  • Paragon Glyphs could continue to Randomly drop throughout and give either Y-flat XP or do as the Stones do and 0/10(though how that’d work…idk.)

It could be tied to scaled content difficulty, ie. Overworld level & NMD level if the random Glyphs dropped gave flat XP.

Just something to pad the numbers. Some grind hard to level them up and live in the dungeons. I like mixing it up but ‘playing my way’ is very inefficient haha.
It’s just a tad tedious when ‘anything you do doesn’t count unless you do THIS task’ for things like Glyph XP, Forgotten Souls and so on.

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Everything we are forced into doing in this game should happen organically at a reduced rate so that all activity leads to accomplishing main goals. For instance, every cellar, event, whisper, just like helltide chests should have a chance to drop forgotten souls, even if it’s just one or two, and NMD bosses.

Agree glyph exp should be persistent until used. Who cares if i want to save it all up for weeks and then make all my glyphs 21 at the same time? I’m the only one that suffers not leveling them a little at a time as I can. Plus if you’ve ever left a NMD and logged out, having forgot to put in the points, you know how angry you feel. I don’t know exactly how to level them any way alternatively, but legions, world bosses, whispers, main bosses could all add glyph exp, while higher NMD could remain the best source of targeted leveling of glyphs.

Being active in the game doing anything should lead to acquisition of any resources required for the game. Actually make it play your way. Difficulty of activity would still be the most efficient way to acquire said resources and exp. I also think more nodes for mining could be put in the world and in dungeons for forgotten souls, fiend rose, living steel, malignant hearts, and a chance to drop eggs and shards off nmd above 90 or something.

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Side note i have 7 glyphs 15 or above i have 34 Distilled Fear in my inventory probably ran beast in the Ice 3-6 times I didn’t count but its been a few so i will go with 6 which mean i would have earned 88 fear. Do we still get them each run idk, but that isn’t alot and i can beat duriel and solo, which means i got unique from him and other bosses, which means now i can push n/m mode and level those glyphs so i pick my struggle points.

That is my strategery and now i am much stronger and better position to do less runs to get them all to atleast 15 for my build and see where i am at, do a few boss runs see if i get lucky as working on gear is still important and i have room to improve. So it is less grindy, probably less optimal on paper idk i dc about it so i cant comment, but if i enjoyed grinding i would grind, i dont so i dont. If the game only gets balanced to favour one playstyle then that is all you get one playstyle and a pointless game that has no depth.

This i why while it can be improved, heck i would take extra XP per run versus making it passive or like stones.

I think it offers more player choice, by the numbers is all well and good, but it is no lateral in thinking its pure logical, what i enjoy about D4 is when i get rewarded for it, i discovering the journey and new ways i enjoy to play within D4s systems.
So that is why i have this view point, its the system as a whole not a stand alone function, and you disrupted it too much it breaks other systems.

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Coming back to this topic after giving up trying to find fun in the boss grind this season… I’m at what seems to be my “routine” of x3 100’s with maxed out glyphs, (no GF yet on the barb and I… don’t… care I guess? Lots of eggs and shards, but the tedium’s fully taken over.)

I mention these things because, given the “balance” changes & “new” builds each season, I’m still convinced the devs want us to level up multiple characters - or at least, that they believe they’ve designed the game to incentivize us to do so. So I hope they come to agree some day, that the glyph grind is one area with “opportunity” - as the business folk like to say.

(NB. The PTR did implement an idea I’d mentioned in my OP, which is “bonus glyph xp” on sigils. See? Innovation is possible. I’m just here to nudge the devs to take even bolder steps in this direction.)

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Idk… your replies seem a bit incoherent, and your last 2 posts strongly imply you didn’t fully read the OP. But for what it’s worth:

  • I place no emphasis on cookie-cutter builds, in fact we’d get +3 to build diversity if the devs shifted glyph xp to glyph nodes;
  • the “passive” idea was simply to replace the stand… it may not be obvious, but the only “activity” is manual allocation of xp to individual glyphs, which is time better spent doing other things, while not enhancing the overall enjoyment of the paragon system the way glyph node xp might;
  • and pointing out what “most players” would prefer = a constructive, useful observation aimed mainly at devs - who are motivated by such things. A quick scan of “glyph” discussions supports my hypothesis. 90% of players DON’T love it, and I’d bet money on 90% of players being keen to test out a different system. It has nothing to do with wanting to be part of a mob (which is a dismissive non-argument).

I simply took the time to flesh out an idea for a modified system & put more than a cursory thought into it.

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Others did, too:

In a “fork in the road” situation (where we’re still manually selecting glyphs to level up - as opposed to “glyph xp” automatically applying to paragon nodes we’ve activated, as I’m suggesting) your idea would reduce tedium, I agree. It’s clever. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: I’m going to play devil’s advocate & suggest why I think it wouldn’t work (if tuned normally)…

  • the glyph drops are random, which means “progression” from this relies on RNG;
  • most glyphs are redundant or useless (& god forbid we’re hoovering up blue glyphs at level 90-100 until they fix it four seasons later);
  • the S3 mechanic already feels pretty stingy in this regard (does anyone stop to read the stones even? does the impact feel like it’s worth the time to even read what you’re picking up? I think that’s how it’s going to feel after the 55th glyph-that-does-nothing-for-you)

To round things out - this is why I think automatic xp to activated glyph nodes makes much more sense, while potentially diversifying gameplay:

  1. it doesn’t rely on RNG; the grind is an xp grind, and thus feels earned;
  2. a glyph node, once leveled up, remains leveled up, allowing us to insert whatever glyph we want to experiment with (diversifying gameplay further);
  3. it removes the need for that f_kin stand, which almost no one will miss (and in doing so, detaches “glyph” leveling from said stand, giving devs the freedom to… free the paragon board system from the NMD system. (I’m more than a bit suspicious the core reason they feel they can’t is because they fenced themselves in with that f_kin stand).

Your glyph-conversion idea would still work if picking up extra glyphs >is< the way glyph nodes gain xp. (This becomes a brilliant way for the devs to liberate themselves). That would strongly suggest trimming down the list of glyphs (easy: get rid of blues), such that by X number of NMD runs we’re expected to have collected all the glyphs, and all subsequent glyph pickups are therefore converted to glyph node xp. We are not penalized for experimenting with different glyphs (since they don’t level up); and the power increase at 15 and 21 comes from the glyph nodes. (This works regardless of whether NMD is the only source, I just think there’s no reason for that. Just make NMD the “best” source for glyph node xp. And if you use MageCraft’s idea of converting extra glyphs into some kind of glyph xp, please make it auto-pickup, thanks.)

I’d like whoever’s reading this to picture it: glyph node grows at 15 and 21… you are free to insert whatever glyph you want… with the build-tweaking that this entails. More variety, more flexibility, more bang for your time-investment. Less cookie-cutter, despite what some thread-skimmers suggest.

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The gist of this is right IMO. Devs can tweak the drop rates of resources in whatever activity, to incentivize us to do the activity. And yes, there’s more than 1 reason that f_kin stand has got to go.

They obviously do want us to max out paragon power, including glyphs. They just haven’t fully taken onboard (I’m 100% convinced of this) how tedious it is to level 2-3 characters per season to max paragon power. It smacks of lack of data in this area (i.e. not enough playtesting this aspect of the game). I’ll go out on a limb & say these are gamers, who are passionate about gaming… so I have to assume it’s a time management/ resource allocation problem.

That they want “2-3 characters per season to max paragon power” for us is mostly a hunch, and I’m sure they disagree internally about that… but IMO that contest, if it’s being had, is nothing to be proud of (i.e. if there are devs pushing more artificial time sinks via bottlenecking, for “engagement” metrics).

I can remember grinding into the bowels of the Cathedral two decades ago on a warrior, and finding a badass 2H axe that would inspire me to level up a sorcerer & try a completely different playstyle (think Stone Curse). It’s the secret sauce of the genre - and maybe of this franchise especially - and if this company managed to make the Cathedral seem exciting for multiple playthroughs, it’s because every little interaction was designed with fun/invention/stakes/growth in mind, and never felt like a corporate rubber band pulling back at my forehead.

16

I see almost no point in this change. Exing Glyphs is ok. I would just like if

  1. exp Glyphs out of NMD
  2. Shareable Glyphs between classes (its idiotici exp same glyph twice in seasson)
17

If we had to level up individual paragon boards instead of glyphs it’d be quite cumbersome to level up glyphs/boards for other builds.

18

#1 ([reduced] glyph xp outside of NMD) was the core suggestion in my OP. So you do, in fact, see a point (50% worth).

#2 is a fun idea (seen it suggested elsewhere). It’s yet another “fork”… It would work in place of shifting xp from glyphs to glyph nodes, IF the balance of glyphs across multiple characters in the same account could be tested to the devs’ satisfaction in anything like the time frame ppl would prefer… meaning, I doubt they’d take less than a year to begin testing this in earnest. It adds strong balancing problems to the mix (having lvl 21 glyphs on a lvl 62 alt for example) which my idea doesn’t. I’m not even sure it’s feasible without major revamping of how the paragon boards work: their power distribution, possibly new bottlenecks built into them to prevent those 21/62 scenarios (thus undermining the call for fewer bottlenecks), etc. I don’t mind godly alts, I just think the devs do, for the foreseeable future. My idea circumvents this problem.

Other “points” you might’ve missed:

  • diversifying sources of xp = diversifying overall endgame grind = QoL boost
  • freeing up glyphs (making them much more transferable across the paragon boards) = incentive to diversify builds, including more easily swapping out glyphs for different scenarios within the same build
  • glyph nodes are more transferable (on average) across builds than glyphs are (on average)
  • probably other stuff I’m neglecting

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The glyph nodes would level up simultaneously, so in fact it should feel less restrictive & less cumbersome. For example: you’ve activated 4 nodes on 4 boards? They’re now all accumulating xp at the same time. Rates depend on parameters set by the devs, such as NMD level, sigil bonus, whatever - even number of attached boards, why not. So the potential grind itself depends on what they set the dial to… the advantage being: ALL active glyph nodes are leveling up, rather than 1 glyph at a time. The perception that this is slower or more cumbersome than individual glyphs is IMO entirely artificial, since in the thought exercise you’re simply swapping in a “useful board” for a “useful glyph”. Overall, “the 3-6 useful glyphs I could try on another build” is roughly equivalent to “the 3-6 paragon boards I could try on another build”. The range difference isn’t meaningful. On average, there are always fewer “target” boards than there are “useful” glyphs anyway. A niche strategy might even include a “board min-maxing” approach, i.e. stacking boards for purposes of leveling them up, before respeccing. It’s a degree of (optional) depth some ppl would enjoy experimenting with, during the paragon grind. There’s no fomo here, nothing forced - only diversity & room for experimentation, which is not what we have right now.

But essentially: the perception of tediousness gets transferred to a different target, so it’s a wash.

The only meaningful differences, then, are the advantages that come from skipping the stand; from getting glyph(node) xp elsewhere; from possible xp from “extra” glyph pickups (MageCraft); from encouraging build diversification by making glyphs themselves much more versatile (bc they’re all “equal”); and from added QoL that comes with loosening up a very tedious grind bottleneck.

19

What about boards that aren’t part of your current build? There’d be no good way to level them up.

During leveling, it would force us into the most efficient paragon path to unlock as many glyph slots as possible, as early as possible, taking away choice.

20

NOT for a single reason… I don’t want to level up all glyphs because I use 6 to 7… There’s no point to level glyphs that people don’t use in their builds.