Designers Can't Reconcile Fun & Grind

PC General Discussion
41

This troll, Subdriver, is out of control with the ineptitude of his replies.

I’m honestly appalled that someone can repeatedly avoid replying to the OP topic while crying “who cares”.

Do you think continously asking “who cares” is an actual argument? If so, that’s beyond pathetic.

You want to goad people into breaking ToS so you can report them or what?

Now, I won’t repeat myself because you never bothered to reply to my last comment. But I definitely will block your troll self.

Edit: Nevermind. This dude is MAX troll by making his profile hidden so I can’t ignore his posts. Gotta love the internet, right? Wtf is this world bro.

42

To be frank don’t think players know either

Option 1:

  • Game is harder baseline with 30%-300% fluctuation of power performance, success rate drops somewhat later on but reward rate is decent i.e. ~5-15%

Option 2:

  • Game is super easy baseline with 3000%-3000000000% fluctuation of power performance, success is guaranteed and reward rate is 0.0005%

Everyone here (or at least 99.9% here) => Gimme option 2

So IDK what all this fuss is about tbh

The “can’t reconcile fun and grind” predates people being capable of “differentiating between fun and power” so don’t think it’s a big deal when devs can’t do it either overall :stuck_out_tongue:

The majority of players prefer to “farm” things 500x to get something of substance, and devs provide just what was asked for in that regard

43

Pretty much what I came here to say.

People change, the expectation changes, the way people play changes.

Where fun used to be doing puzzles, difficult challenges, intensive tasks… now fun is “blasting”. If you can’t destroy everything on screen and within 3 screens of your character in a millisecond, then you’re not having fun anymore - this does get very boring though, which is why it’s only a small subset of people that really push high GRs in D3 and are still pushing Pits as high as they can in D4.

It’s only fun until you’re unable to blast and have to actually start challenging yourself.

This is not a problem caused by Blizzard, bad design, or anything like that. It’s because people have changed their mentality to an instant gratification one.

The problem is, when you have a game that gives you both option 2 and option 1, it’s hard to switch mentality between them. So, you go through the game blasting, having “fun”, and then you get to a difficult bit, and it’s confusing as to why it’s suddenly difficult, and that takes away from your fun and feels bad, even though if you had never been able to blast and came to the same difficulty, you might have actually enjoyed that and overcome it.

I’m not sure Blizzard can really fix this, it’s not a problem with the game. It’s a problem with the players (myself including, sadly).

1 Like
44

I agree with your assessment but think there’s a “catch” there too

IF there’s a “higher tier system” that is out of our control and can “combine” both with a decent rate - can work… BUT, the key thing is that => key part of of decisionmaking system of deciding whether you’re about to face Option1 or Option2 has to be LARGELY OUT of player’s (i.e. your) control

Otherwise the game is no longer a game and becomes a “monthly gym membership” of some sorts

People are absolutely TERRIBLE at self-assessment of achievements, that’s why games (by design have always had chapters, challenges, completable parts, & milestones), and that’s actually good…

ALL good games start from that assumption that people are terrible at self-assessing of how far they can go, that’s part of the fun, pushing further than expected that could do

Can’t put everything under the umbrella of “do I want a chocolate or vanilla right now” or “am I doing cardio too slow or need to go faster”, but (sadly) that’s what D4 is about, self-pacing, self-assessment, maximizing expectations of every single ounce of damage as the game goes on

Remember this one => SELF-PACING in games is an absolutely terrible and dreadful design folks (especially when combined with maximization of greed also)

BUT, ironically, that’s not what people want, when telling them about this they keep finding some of the weirdest arguments to fight it “but I don’t want this to be souls-like”, “I wanna feel like becoming more powerful”, e.t.c…

I mean, first of all there are leagues and bounds of space to explore and find the right formula (as long as there’s will to do so), and secondly people kinda need to narrow down success rate % expectations for the game to actually work

Blizz can brainstorm for the best mob, best boss that has ever existed in any game (think of something like combine mechanics from Kel’Thuzad, Malthael, temporarily switching of “bodies” between you and the boss and having high regen rate that wanna get hit to reduce and slow it down but then your character doesn’t shoot at you unless hitting it lol)

Like, all that goes down the drain when sooner or later, there will be an item/build that reduces that fight into total 10 second only rubble :slight_smile:

45

oh but there is something we can do. stop paying for unfinished products. I will never make another purchase from Blizzard. That’s what we can do. we’re not powerless. we hold all the power. unfortunately there’s people like you who get excited for product and consume and then get excited for the next product even though youve been burnt by the same company multiple times.

46

:rofl:

I love how you came to that conclusion with little to no evidence. Meanwhile I’m advocating over here not to pre-order products and calling out AAA Shareholder gaming studios for their lackluster products over the past decade and then some.

Would be like me inferring that you also bought this product sight unseen so you are in fact guilty of the same crime you accuse me of. I have no idea if you got this game for ‘free’ from game pass, if you pre-ordered, if you bought it on sale, nor would I make that assumption based on a few words you said.

So let’s go back to your initial argument. We do have the power as a collective, not as a divided community. If you can convince millions of average players out there, who never read these forums, don’t engage in social media, watch YouTube reviews, or any other information outlet to rise up, and not pay for a product, things will change, absolutely.

Realistically speaking, I don’t see it happening. However, as I say in most posts that offer asinine suggestions without any actual plan of action, I’ll buy you a pizza and a beer when it happens. Until that time, I’ll continue to scrutinize companies, not pre-order games, do my research, then purchase and play the games I deem worthy of my time.

Next time I ask you read what I actually said, not what you think I said. Basically don’t be another bob.

47

youre right. i shouldnt have made those assumptions about you and I apologize. i was also a over zealous with my statement about us not being able to do anything. we’re not a hivemind and people will play what interests them regardless of the state its released.

1 Like
48

Who actually gets this butt-hurt that they act like this? Time to grow up. This place definitely needs some rational, mature adults instead of those lobbing immature insults.

The point is why would you care how many people play or dont play? If you like it play, if not dont. The number of players is irrelevant. Trying to use that as a reason to make a change or not doesnt matter.

49

I’ll just say we need more people like you on the forums.

Sadly I wish more people waited than dive head first into the unknown, but such is human nature. On the flip side, those of us who have learned from past mistakes (and I’ve made plenty), can just let them be our guinea pigs.

Now I am curious about the expansion, but not sold on the idea that I should preorder it sight unseen, or even pay full price for it, if and when I decide to buy it. I’ve got a huge backlog of games to play through as well.

Worst case scenario, I save some money and never buy the expansion. Best case scenario, the expansion is a hit, I buy it on sale and go from there.

50

OK, so I’ll try summarize all the problems with D4 approach in this post (ofcource some of these are assumptions but kinda necessary to point out IMO)

Problem and mistake #1 (the biggest one)

  • It is up to the players to hurt themselves

This is ALWAYS bad design decision. It reduces responsibility of the dev/design team (somewhat) yes, but ultimately it is TERRIBLE decision. That is because you’re making players be their own friend or foe and we’re playing games to “get out of ourselves” instead of dig deeper into ourselves lol

Problem and mistake #2

  • Not embracing failure

D4 is like a car that “never runs out of gas” but how far you go depends on how fast you go, the road is clear, endless, every “detour” that you make before upgrading gearbox or break is at your own detriment, it is highly recommended to “stick to the highway” at all costs :stuck_out_tongue:

Problem (and mistake #3)

  • Game has predetermined set of final outcomes, and unexpected outcomes are “prebaked” into some of the preemptively offered options

What does this mean ?, no individualization of performance of individual runs, and even further, all the “means” for trying out are limited and the game revolves around several outcomes possible at final destination

(Both direct consequences of problem #2)

  • All gear is the same
  • All “cookbooks” are the same (Codex is same, Temper manuals are same, both are collectible collections), and even
  • All Uber/Mythic uniques are the same (there’s a set of several to “craft by self” at cost of finding another)

So it is INNEVITABLE that everyone will end up in the same spot (both gear-wise and progress-wise) and the only thing that will differ are “tier” and damage numbers

ALL of those 3 combined lead to the following problem:

  • Game is simply not a game, it is a treadmill with a slot machine attached to it

It is literally a “round of cardio” to earn a “round of gamble”, what is more the game also functions under an assumption/promise that it’s “reasonable” to hit a jackpot, so in order to truly value what playing D4 feels like is

  • Do 10 minute rounds of cardio on a Treadmill
  • Go to Slot machine nearby and pull the lever
  • Rince and repeat until you win. You win when you hit the jackpot

Some say balance is gonna fix the game, sure, it may make it feel like hitting jackpot better, sure, BUT but

  • Doesn’t change the fact that the CORE ACTIVITY of the game itself is “cardio for pull the lever” rince and repeat, over and over and over

All of the combined makes the game be EXHAUSTING-first

The game/team has to completely change their priorities:

1 - Playfulness and uncertain outcomes over guaranteed efficiency
2 - Dynamic progress of milestones over pursuit for power
3 - Individualization of success and runs as opposed to putting everything in an “almanac” of what is available to use for this particular run of yours

Now, can the game work without fixing/changing those things ?, sure it can, it will be always on “borrowed time” though

Can the game innovate all the time to function “out of the box” ?, yes it can, but every “out of the box” solution will be narrowed down on impact so it doesn’t change the “treadmill round to pull the lever” cycle

THAT must be changed first, when that is the case no longer, any “out of the box” solution can work without the burden of current designs in the game overall

1 Like
51

The developers haven’t really nailed loot finding/progression system in this game. Most players don’t have the patience anymore for D2 like loot grind, but D4 doesn’t have a great balance either.

People hated leveling, so getting to 100 is faster. Then people complained maxing glyphs felt bad now that leveling was faster, so they made it easier to max those.

People complained (rightfully) about inventory space due to legendary aspect hording. Now they made it so you can permanently save your best legendary aspect.

Essentially the pace of progression is so rapid now that you can pretty much get your build online very quickly. Then it’s hunting for the UU you might want and otherwise marginal upgrades.

You don’t need to do anything difficult to get your build going and demolish everything. The challenging content is just there for the sake of doing challenging content, but the rewards are not very satisfying after a little while because you have almost all the gear you want, it’s just not perfect. The quest for perfect gear feels very meaningless because the reward is just pushing harder Pit levels.

I think the loot system is fundamentally broken because of the legendary aspect system. You can get these so easily, it makes getting builds going very easy, and maximizing the builds doesn’t offer that much enjoyment. There are some build defining uniques that extend the loot hunt a little longer, but all of these are farmable and can be achieved without that much time investment.

It’s made loot not that exciting to get. There is no gradient of loot rarity. It’s all pretty easy to get, or very rare. But with the spark system, you can get at least one UU that you want every season. The grind solely comes down to maximizing stats, which feels very empty after a while.

At least that’s my humble opinion. Others probably enjoy that perfection grind, but I think most players will grow bored very quickly and that’s D4’s biggest long-term problem.

2 Likes
52

This was never true. What is true is people hated RE-leveling, and that’s because it is repetition of the same thing all over (i.e. the team failed to provide a different experience the second time done after the first)

On top of that the issue - equipping same gear 3 times (more or less) with just different prefix and higher numbers

Same problem, not learning lesson, content required not speeding up

It is also soulless because first of all it’s not something “individual” that just you’ve done, and secondly because better gear just means higher numbers

:100:

This is a consequence of not embracing failure as an option and pushing it down further and further and further (and even leaving it at the behest of the players to hurt themselves when finally bored) as much as possible

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