A modder's feedback

PC General Discussion
1

I was waiting for some time (playing since day one of d4 beta release) to collect enough experience in order to provide credible feedback on Diablo IV’s item lore and mechanics.

For reference I have 8+ years of experience in diablo 2 modding, playing diablo 2 mods fore 20+ years and also have experience in modding other PRG games. I always try to look for the art in every game, because in my experience the art is the sole thing that makes player identify itself with the game and stay with the genre for …indefinite time.

As you may guessed well, the reason for my feedback is to shed light of what I think makes a game a piece of art and how to incorporate it in diablo 4, and keep the game strong and well established in the gaming space.

Now, there are a lot of things that must be addressed, but I will skip them, because either they are hard to fix or maybe not so relevant to the current game phase developemnment. I will focus on my thoughts on items and where they should be touched with the magic stick to make the game times more exciting.

How items look like in diablo as on now:
item quality1: base stats
item quality2: base stats, affix
item quality3: base stats, affix, affix
item quality4: base stats, affix, affix affix
item quality5: base stats, affix, affix affix, magic power
item quality6: base stats, affix, affix affix, affix, magic power

Did I missed something? Probably not. If yes, excuse me, its probably becasue they are …just the same.

The problem with this system is that is is not much exciting. I know devs tried to make everything fine and smooth and leveled… and it happened that it is not at all fun to play with. Look, I don’t go with the negative here, I am just honest. I play the game, I like so many things, but when I look at my items, reflect on the way of how I acquired them and compare the whole situation with some of my other experiences, sorry but it even does not beat some games from 1999 with Pentium requirements. It is that much backtracking.

OK, off with the smirks, lets make it amazingly inspiring now!

Again, if I have not modded for so many years I would not know for sure this will work, but here I am very serious telling everybody, how a small twist in the item style can make big changes without harming the current infrastructure and game style. The idea is based on the theory of randomization within a system. Instead of having a purely leveled item system we create a finely tuned randomized system, where the balance is not linear but is held within the gaps of each unique element. So instead of all the elements have the same things, all the elements shall have different properties, which when combined create the feeling of fullness and completeness. Let me proceed with the exacts of the matter now.

How items should look like in diablo after being fixed:

item quality1:

base stats

but increased compared to other item types. this item can be imprinted with aspects.

item quality2:

base stats, special magic property only occurring only on this items

for example weapons can have + flat elemental damage on hit and armor can have + flat elemental thorns when hit. this item cannot be imprinted with aspects.

item quality3:

base stats, affix, affix

(affixes on this items should be always x2 more powerful than affixes of item quality4) this item cannot be imprinted with aspects.

item quality4:

base stats, affix, affix affix.

this item can be imprinted with aspects.

item quality5:

base stats, affix, aspect.

this item can be imprinted with aspects and the aspect can be learned when salvaged. (affixes on this items should be always x2.5 more powerful than affixes of item quality4)

item quality6:

base stats, affix, unique item power

this item can receive extra 1 or 2 affixes throughout crafting systems. this item cannot receive aspects, nor its unique power learned for imprints.

item quality7:

base stats, special magic power unique to this item only, set item bonus

this items will have extra properties gained upon wearing other items from the same set. this item cannot be imprinted with aspects.

That sums it overall in very profane manner, the real thing must be done much more exact.

So I hope you see, how we have just limited the obnoxious overuse of aspects in gear, in favor of flat stats or extra magic powers and added set items to the game. So now your gear should look instead of 7 aspected item and 3 uniques, more like: 2 magic, 2 set, 2 unique, 2 rare, 1 basic (if leveling probably and using it for the base stat boost, I doubt it will stay relevant late game) 1 aspected. Or any other combination of these, but the goal is to make most item types relevant to each other, with gradual increase in power when increase the quality.

So a leveling character can mash up whatever he finds and make it work, while to have min-max the player will have to lurk deep and hard for the best items, and if the loot tables are set properly he would even have to trade with other players minimum 1-2 times in his carrier to be min-maxed properly.

I must stress that loot tables need good rework if this is to work. Professionals know how to do it, I am sure our devs will have it done in a time of a cheeseburger!

There is much more to be said and elaborated, but I will leave it here, since it went already too long for the most tired grinders to be able to keep the focus. Peace!

7 Likes
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That’s all good and well but have you read about the itemization changes along with the new crafting systems? A lot of your points are valid for how the game currently works. They won’t really apply fully with the new changes coming.

Going to assume you didn’t play the PTR or read up on the changes coming. Go take a look, join us all on the 14th when the patch hits, and see if any of your points change based on new information.

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Yes, did not played PTR but I have general idea what will change. Nevermind, it can be flexed with the next season and even with the changes of the new expansion. If the idea of changing the system to randomized item types is followed, anything can be included/excluded with ease.

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A lot of your analysis is also very subjective. You find the current system to be boring and non-engaging, which I agree with. I just don’t agree that every item should have meaning beyond a reasonable level of course.

The main issue you aren’t addressing at all is the fact the game revolves around aspects. Affixes themselves are not game changing in the sense they can fundamentally change how a skill works, they’ll only ever add damage or utility, even with your particular changes. There’d be no reason for people to choose an Affix heavy item that can’t be imprinted, over an item that could potentially have the same or more affixes with an Aspect attached as well.

Taking your examples I don’t see anyone using quality 1, 2, or 3 over 4. 5 is just adding Greater Affixes to items which is already coming in S4.

6 is just adding two more affixes through the new crafting system onto Uniques, which if we’re reducing them to only have 3 affixes even with crafting, you’ve just made them worse then 4 and 5 aside from build defining uniques. This was already one of the concerns during the PTR as uniques could only have 4 fixed affixes, where as a legendary had 3 base and two tempered affixes.

7 has to be balanced just right and not be too overpowered to the point you would need it for a build, but also not so lackluster that you would never pick it up. So it would have to be on par with an aspect or unique aspect, at that point though why waste 2 or more items for these bonuses?

I feel as if you skimmed over the changes and have a basic idea, but not the whole idea. This is what makes your post come off as some one who hasn’t done any research into the upcoming changes at all. Basically you’re the average player at this point. It’s not meant as an insult mind you, just an observation.

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Your concerns are appropriate. But have no worry a fine tuning that takes several people one full month will resolve any problems of that sort. As I’ve said before, I have experience with this and know how it works and what it takes to be done. yeah it is not easy, like clap and we are done, but with the proper attitude and focused on the goal, it is very much achievable. In the very end when everything is polished none of your concerns will be concerns whatsoever, but yes it needs to be polished and adjusted. My point was not to present the finished product, but more like to point the road to it.

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What is the best weapon type for a build? - only that weapon type shows up in a loot filter. What is more useful in an item slot - a more powerful affix, to serve as part of a set or to have an aspect? - only that would matter. Etc. for anything and everything else while going down the usefulness hierarchy during leveling. Its a math problem and we can easily look up the solution online. Honestly, making use of suboptimal items and adjusting skills and glyphs to advance while the core mechanics of a build are not yet set up is where one can derive entertainment form creative tinkering with items. Sacrificing one thing to optimize another according to the current problem and switching gear around to fit the demands of the situation. Unfortunately enough, making the leveling journey more difficult and forcing the players to adapt in order to be able to progress another step is probably the way to make itemization “interesting”. Not my cup of tea.

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Oh I understand that, I’m just saying if your road is to eventually fix it, I don’t think the steps you’re taking to get there are fixing what’s already in place. You’re just making more steps to get to the same outcome of what we have currently.

Again the example of your Quality 1 through 3, is basically the equivalent of having normal to magical to rare items now, with more limiting steps. When you reach Quality 4, you’ll throw out those items regardless, like we do now, or rather this is how it will be when the patch hits.

I understand you have experience modding, and I have no doubt your mods are popular for D2. However I would venture a guess even the amount of people who use the mod or mods in question pale in comparison to the amount of people who play the original or future iterations of the games.

That being said, if you ever start to make your own game I’ll sign up to be a beta tester. Free of charge too, won’t even have to pay me, what more could you ask for? :slight_smile:

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8

I think OP’s system can work and I hope it gets the attention it deserves.

I played PTR. My main concern is that I see too much power on gear. It feels like D3 all over again, and thats bad.
I think systemwise the talent tree is the most interesting. If I was Blizzard, then I would expand on that and probably cut the Paragon.

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Having different design items is mind-placebo, regardless if they are overall doing the same thing as you noted or not. This placebo is thrilling for human mind, even if being a logically very simple thing. So it makes the game more thrilling, I know it sounds stupid but it’s it just a psychological trick. Take WoW for example. You have 10000 different junk things and items doing basically overall the same things. And this game happened to be the thriller of the previous decade for the RPG genre. Very simple concept, in long term, it is not important what is the thing, but how it is presented to the player. Yea on the first day it drops, a player might say “oh that is dumb item”. But when he plays 20 hours he will be mesmerized by his own mind tendencies to make choices and different variations. More different items means, more complex choices. I don’t say it is some genius thing, nor that I invented it, I just know for sure it works en masse. And it is contradictory to our current system, which is bleak in in presentation to the player.

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Completely agree here, I also believe the changes coming will make it more enticing for players when not only finding items but also being able to alter them to their own specifications.

The main factor is choice here, or rather the illusion of choice which is where the placebo affect can come into play. You make items interesting for the first WT1 and 2, then change it up and make them more meaningful for WT3 and 4, this is what we currently have, and it’ll only get better when the patch hits when we have more choices of what we can actually do to our gear.

The game is conditioning the player to look for upgrades, and at a glance that’s easy to do when you know instinctively anything less then a Legendary or Unique item will be worthless (in the upcoming patch). The same can be said for WoW or any other game with a progression system with their items.

This is what we had in D2 as well. You obviously weren’t going into Hell difficulty with a level 1 white item, that’s just insane, although I’m sure there are people out there who have done runs like this. They gave white items a purpose with Runewords, but they were still useless without them, same with the majority of blue items, some uniques, and some sets.

While some sets or items may have been interesting for a few levels, they would soon lose to a much more efficient item of the same type with favoring stats. When you’ve conditioned your players to look for the BiS items, you’ve limited their choices of using older obsolete items, regardless if there’s hundreds or thousands of them.

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11

Yea, you are on the spot. My idea is to increase normal items usage by 15% and magic item usage by 25%, for leveling purposes. Maybe having a leveling character 1-2 times excited by their drop as well. Rare items are mid-items in my mind, they should serve as balancing point of the other ideas.

For example level 15 sorceress gets max-roll damage normal staff, which by design had already high base damage, so it is BiS for next 3 levels lets say. Now imagine this in the relevance of speed-running. That speedrunner had it because of the normal item drops. Viva la normales.

But, yes I don’t see them as end game gear at all, end game should be 3 pieces of high-end crafting gear, some uniques, and aspected, maybe a set of 2-3 pieces. It still needs to be varied, like if each item quality has its specific color, you need to open character UI and see at least there colors of items.

I skipped this info in the OP, hope you and people don’t mind it much, it is hard to put everything in single post and not get things messy :laughing:

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12

Ok this makes much more sense context wise. I was confused at first. Thank you for clearing that up, I agree with this then. I have no issues with making items more ‘fun’ or ‘interesting’ for leveling purposes. I believe I’ve been arguing against the wrong thing this entire time, for that I apologize.

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No prob. It was expected from my OP to perplex people. The concept is complicated unfinished and raises many questions. But I had to put it somehow in a shape so to say. I am sure if anyone is really interested by this idea they will take only the essence of it and model it more properly. Anyways I don’t claim I know their game more than they do, I just see something that is actually practically changeable with moderate amount of work, and if done properly won’t break the game while it will fix a lot of bums in the item lore and its behavior. This is the huge part that it can be slipped into the current meta and work, while other changes are not so easily adaptable.

In a nutshell Items must have identity, or they become hard to identify your character with, henceforth player will have hard time identify with its own character, because of this and the link to the game weakens exponentially.

fun items = fun times, a saying probably mentioned in the forum at least 666times already, lel

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14

The problems with itemization in D4 (pre-S4) were of “secondary nature” and making it look worse than it was.

These are/were the 4 biggest reasons why itemization was bad:

1 - Unbalanced affixes (at least until S2)
2 - Shenanigan affixes that polluted the affix pool (until S4, on elite kill stuff and shrine buff duration just rolled way too often)
3 - Redundant affixes ([vs chilled, vs slowed, vs immobilized] or [vs poisoned, vs bleeding, vs cursed, vs burning])
4 - Itemization stopped evolving after lvl75 (like, literally, after the two LHs that return HP or Resource not a single new affix for 25 levels ever rolled after that)

Don’t think one should go too too far (or much further than that) to realize what really the problems were with the itemization at start

Perhaps you have experience and knowledge to “expand” it, but as far as fixes are concerned, the problems were pretty straightforward to identify (the 4 mentioned above), and don’t think one really needs a woods worth of wood to make a campfire :slight_smile:

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Yet another thread made instantly irrelevant because the OP did not read the PTR notes.

Repeat after me: “I will always check the latest game or PTR patch notes before I complain about something”

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What the heck is the convoluted novel you posted without even having a cursory understanding of what Blizzard has chosen to do with Itemization 2.0? You have completely ignored how Affixes appear on items come Season 4, Tempering, Mastercrafting, and the change to Aspects and the Codex.

The current system gives the player more control over their itemization which is good, it is just shallow comparative to other titles and we are fast approaching the problem of item slots limiting build variety because of how Aspects and Unique items work.

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Whats with all the posts today asking changes that are already coming in season 4? Which is 2.5 weeks away.

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Hello, PocketNdrd.

I have read the notes on PTR, watched campfire, watched videos by the community, explaining in detail how new patch is going to change the game. I also posted on PTR forum my thoughts on some of the changes (mostly positive).

My idea here is different from the upcoming changes and is possible to incorporate all of them within it, as it is more free of specific goals, but rather expanding on the nature and variance of item types.

Anyways this will require quite an overhaul, so I don’t see it happen in the next three months or so, but having it in plan can slowly bring its benefits to the world. Like if devs even only take 10% of the ideas here, we already have a progress going!

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Loot filter when

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It’s not that deep bro. I dislike this approach to feedback. “I’m a streamer, here’s my feedback, I’m a youtuber, here’s my feedback, I’m a game developer of a game no one heard of or cares, here’s my feedback, I’m a diablo 2 modder, here’s my feedback”.

This approach to feedback from a position of authority is incredibly off putting. We’re all players and every feedback should be considered as such. Your suggestions are also meaningless now since they just finished with itemization rework. If there is going to be another round of changes to items my best guess would be the expansion (which I highly doubt) and even then things would have evolved to a point where your current feedback is mute.

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