You do not understand what Personal Loot is

The real argument is about ‘manually clicking loot drops’. Most of us can agree that having loot drop and then whoever physically mouses-over the item and clicks on it (within proximity req) gets the loot is a bit of a silly archaic system.

Some people want to leave the loot system as is. There are many reasons for this, it could be a fear of disrupting the internal balance of D2 that has proven itself for over 20 years. Some have no faith in Bliz to come up with a change that will be better, rather than make the game worse. Some people just want to preserve the nostalgia. Some people hope they will have pickup hacks to exploit other people to get more Baal drops with guaranteed pickups.

Others want to change the system because the old system is outdated. It promotes item pickup hacks and tankier builds that will be closer to the loot when it drops. If you have an awesome build with high MF and generate a good item, people shouldn’t be able to take it from you. All the people in this boat tend to refer to the change as “Personal Loot”, and this has become the rallying cry, but it is greatly mislabled.

Why? because you do not understand what personal loot is. This is a fact. I don’t, you don’t; nobody knows. It is not a defined term. What you think is totally different from the next guy, but you are both championing the “personal loot” campaign. Recent polls are also making this black and white; do you want “personal loot” or not? The problem is that if you vote for personal loot, you might be voting for something you are totally not for.

So lets break down “personal loot”

Some people think of Personal Loot as D3 Loot. In D3 everyone has their own instanced loot. This means that if you are playing with 2 people, twice the amount of loot is dropping. This means if you are looking for an item and you have an agreement with your partner, you basically have 200% chance to find the item you are looking for. The amount of loot is multiplied by the number of players. This works for D3 because the game was designed this way, items are not particularly rare, most rares are class based and nothing in the game is particularly difficult to obtain, with any unique taking a few minutes to a few hours at most to obtain.

If the loot system were to change this way in D2, it would fundamentally change the rarity of items, as all 8 player games are now dropping 800% loot. Items would become much more common (as they are in D3). For example if you want a Shako, you could just run Baal runs all day. You need them for exp, and the drops are good too so its a win-win. Even if you don’t get a Shako, other players are getting 2 or 3 they don’t need so the value will go way down and it will become much easier to obtain.

The functionality of this loot system is simple and straightforward. It works the same way as D3 and so you have an exact example to base it off of. D2 has MF to consider, but since everyone has their own instanced loot you can apply the one chars MF to all loot that drops. There is no questions left open, other than the specifics of loot eligibility (for example a restriction saying that you must do something to the boss in order to be eligible for loot). While easy to understand, this would fundamentally change how loot works in D2. It also leaves exploits open, such as making one char built for damage while another account in only MF gear stands around collecting all the loot. This would also change many builds in the game, as there would be no reason to make your own MF sorc/javazon/hammerdin as you can simply just do group Baal runs which would mathematically be the best way to MF.

One way this might work is if they drastically drop the amount of loot that drops off bosses. Instead of Baal dropping 4-5 uniques and rares every kill, he could have a 30% chance to drop one unique or rare. Then if you are playing alone, that chance could go up to 300%, promoting solo play for MF and group play for experience gain, which would allow for D3 loot while preserving the core economy and loot motivations closer to the original.

Another way that people think of Personal loot is Automatically Distributed loot . In this case lets say a Shako drops off Baal. In this case 1 Shako would drop globally, and it would get assigned randomly to one of the 8 players (again assuming eligibility requirements)

There is no basis for automatically distributed loot, the closest thing to this would be Classic World of Warcraft, assuming everyone rolls need. But that’s just it - WoW has a rolling system because automatically distributed loot has issues. The same applies for D2, if a Paladin Shield were to drop, it makes no sense to randomly assign it to any class, when Paladins are the only ones who can equip it - and potentially need it most.

Now, this is okay with D3 loot, because statistically the same amount of Paladin Shields are dropping for everyone. But with ‘automatically assigned’ loot you are dealing with the same percentage for a shield to drop divided by the amount of players in the game, drastically reducing the chance for you to get paladin shields.

Another thing to note is with WoW items are automatically placed in your inventory. Obv this is not how diablo games work, the loot is dropped on the ground. So with ‘automatically distributed’ loot, a Paladin Shield would drop on the ground for 1/8 random players. This player might not choose to pick it up (which will likely be the case if they are not a paladin, because they don’t care - its only money and money is virtually worthless in D2). So that means if you are a paladin looking for a shield, 87.5% of all the shields that drop in the game are now stuck on the ground invisible to you. This would fundamentally change the D2 experience in a way that I think everyone can agree is not good.

But then there are other things to consider, is it only boss loot that gets distributed? What if a Unique drops off trash? is it only Sets/Uniques that get distributed? What about rares? To some a 3 socketed Archon Plate is worth more than most uniques, so is that automatically distributed too? Is this a normal global drop that you still have to rush to click on? Or is it randomly assigned to someone who already has Enigma, doesn’t care and so just leaves it on the ground?

So the best way this would work is making loot simply like classic WoW. But hundreds of items are dropping in D2, you could be rolling on items 100 times a minute. Maybe a system where you can choose a certain number of specific item types, and if it happens to be the same types as other players, there is an internal roll off to decide who keeps the item. Due to the nature of dropping items in D2 you would likely also need a special highlight for “won” items.

This could still be exploited as you can bring multiple chars in the game all trying for the same item, but at least the economy would be maintained closer to the original D2 experience, and would not as harmfully effect MF builds.

A third “personal loot” reference might be wow personal loot, as defined in Wow Mists of Pandaria:
“Under personal loot, the game chooses a number of players (based on group size) and awards them a random item for their spec, while everyone else receives an amount of gold specific to them.”

This is the closest we have to a real definition of “personal loot”, however makes the least sense when you look at D2. Firstly, it would require the player to define their “build” in order for the system to know what kind of loot to distribute. With 20+ years under our belt that could be somewhat easily defined, however if they decide to make any skill tweaks it could create entire new builds, but with personal loot these builds would be impossible to gear for. You would have to switch around other related builds until your new build is officially recognized. I have no idea how unwanted items would work, if an item is not used in a build it would just no longer drop for anyone.

There is also the factor that the fall back for this type of loot is gold. Since gold is effectively meaningless in D2, a unique is basically valued at infinite gold, so players that do not get a unique would have to be awarded infinite gold. They could potentially create a different fall back like random runes. But any way you design this, it fundamentally changes the entire foundation of D2 and the resulting game will likely be barley recognizable from the original.

So there you have it. You have no idea what personal loot is. Unless they come out and officially explain all the nuances of proposed loot systems, we would have no idea what we are voting for if we get behind ‘personal loot’. Realistically personal loot would become whatever the game designers decide it is, and they will choose the proper tweaks and customizations based on the unforeseen problems that arise in testing. Then we will end up with whatever system they are at during the launch window.

So the real question is, which are you for -

Leaving the loot system as is, or gambling on Bliz to personally design an entirely new loot system that fundamentally changes the core of D2?

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This is a good description of a core issue we’re all likely dealing with in framing the question. My personal assumption has been that PL is synonymous w/ D3’s loot system.

My preference is to keep D2’s loot system as is just for a frame of reference.

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This is not accurate. You are confounding the loot system with loot drop rates. In early D3 vanilla, the drop rates were very low. Currently in D3:RoS, the drop rates are very high. Throughout D3, it always has been personal loot. This clearly disprove the concept that personal loot is associated with high drop rates.

This is what people are asking for (with automatically being RNG/binomial probability based). The total drops between personal loot and FFA loot being the same.

D3 calculates (in general) for each character per monster kill; however, this could be calculated globally and then “assigned” afterwards.

This is not the right way to think about it as described above. Borderlands 3 and PoE have optional loot systems. You can see for yourselves how these game implemented them. For PoE, there is FFA, timed loot, and personal loot where the game creator sets upon game creation.

Except it doesn’t change the core. Plus it would be optional anyway. So if you thought it changed the core, you could choose to play the old way. I would encourage you to change your title, as it appears to me that you do not understand what personal loot is.

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Yeah and I think it is important, somehow, for everyone to get their ‘lingo’ in line. As you describe personal loot I’m not really opposed to it at all… not sure if I agree with it but not opposed (read the other thread to). As long as the global rate remains the same I’m much more open to the idea (and there is NO BoA or BoG as I like hunting items for others).

Personal loot is a different concept than free trade/BoA. In early D3, loot was not BoA. There was an auction house even. Later in D3, Blizzard decided to implement BoA for good items, because they wanted to discourage account hacking, chat spamming, and real money trades often associated with shady websites.

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Yeah, I fully realize all of that.

I just don’t want Blizzard’s desire to lockout 3rd party sites to, at the same time, lock me out of something that genuinely makes the loot grind a lot more enjoyable to me.

I played D3 from Beta through… ehhh… Hydra Set for Wizard with a break from some season until the Necro patch. I’m aware of the history but also the motivation of the history which is what makes me concerned that with one (the PL) will come the other (BoA/BoG).

I also do not want BoE either but that I could somewhat live with… still a HUGE preference for BoA to also not exist.

This response is a perfect example of my point.

The post directly before you said they assumed it would be like D3 loot, while you are creating your own system of automatically distributed loot based on RNG/binomial probability. You are then assuming the community pushing “personal loot” is championing your cause. They are not. To prove it, do a search of “binomial probability” and tell me how many people are talking about this.

Here you are personally guaranteeing that the devs will give us the option to change the loot systems between new and old. No one has a crystal ball.

show me the official definition of personal loot as RNG/binomial probability based automatic distribution, and I will change my title.

Also you are assuming that my title says I know and you don’t know. I stated I don’t know either in the post. But I still hold that you don’t know either, which means my title is still accurate.

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This is a video game forum. I would not expect discussions about binomial distributions to be common. I found 8 threads on the D2R forum using “binomial distribution” and 6 with “binomial probability”.

What people do know is how FFA works broadly and how personal loot works broadly. The fine details of the calculations interest some but not others.

This is how loot drops are determined in D3, it is a binomial distribution whether an item drops or not. (There are some exceptions). Nothing is being created new. It is also a binomial distribution in D2. In both cases the formulas are complex but it still is a binomial (two options drop/no drop). There are of course additional calculations (item quality, affixes, roll ranges, etc…)

I do not have a crystal ball. The future is uncertain. I have a high degree of confidence that FFA loot will exist in D2R at launch and thereafter. I have far less confidence that a personal loot system will be introduced as another option in D2R.

Checks Blizzard’s recent screenshots, scratches head contemplatively.

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Except it doesn’t change the core. Plus it would be optional anyway. So if you thought it changed the core, you could choose to play the old way. I would encourage you to change your title, as it appears to me that you do not understand what personal loot is.

Why is it so hard for you to grasp… YES IT CHANGES THE CORE.

Currently, we are in a game, I kill a monster, unique drops, I click on it while you watch from the wings or while youre killing another monster(hopefully)
Your way, I kill a monster, I get a magical item, you come in from the wings and get a unique for doing Jack All…
That changes the way the game is, the devs have confirmed they are not going down that path.
DEAL WITH IT.

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Checks Blizzard’s recent screenshots, scratches head contemplatively.

Which ones are those?

That is my point. We don’t know what the future holds. We have no idea what the devs consider personal loot to be, and how it might be implemented in context to D2.

I agree I think the loot system is best left as-is (FFA). I think that WoW Classic is so popular because of the serious hands-off approach that Bliz has taken, and I think at least leaning into that style (at least at launch) is the best way to go. I think that it is very possible that they could come up with a more modern system that is both better & maintains the core gameplay of D2, however I have little faith that they actually would pull it off.

I also don’t mind them having a dual system where you could do either 'personal" or ‘original’ loot, because the community will quickly determine which is the best for the game and basically throw the other in the garbage. From a developmental perspective however, its best for them to figure this out on their own without wasting the time to program systems nobody will use (and delay launch).

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Search “blizzard screenshots” on the forum.

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the thread is lower on the list - screenshots of blizzard survey

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I recently quit WoW classic (again) to play more D2 and other things.

The world buff meta (and to a lesser extent, the “reliance” most guilds have on way overpriced consumables) has been a major irritant in the game this whole time and most people agree. I find myself kind of wishing they had a slightly more hands on approach to some of these systems that really made it a chore to play. And I benefitted the most out of any class, since I play a warrior. Even then it’s exhausting.

It wasn’t expected to become a problem because we all remember playing it in 2004 and world buffs weren’t really a thing. But it really highlighted that people play games differently now, and interact with each other online in different ways. Bringing old games back to the online multiplayer market sometimes necessitates reworking old systems that, although were great at the time, are silly now.

I’m not necessarily saying anything specifically about D2R here. But I do like to point these things out to remind ourselves how game developers might think.

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Search “blizzard screenshots” on the forum.

Please tell me you are not referring to screen shots of the survey?

MicroRNA is referring to the screenshots of the recent “official poll” in which one of the questions is if you are interested in personal loot vs FFA loot.

This is exactly the problem. They don’t show the exact screen of this question, but its likely like the others without a lengthy description. They just say “do you want A or B”.

the problem is like asking:
“do you want to make a sandwich here, or go get some pizza?”

Now, you know what you have in your house and what will happen if you make a sandwich. but “go get some pizza” is undefined.

Some people assume they are going out to an Italian restaurant with pizza made from scratch and all organic ingredients. Some might think the local pizza shop, or possibly Dominos or Little Cesars or Pizza Hut. You could get flat crust or deep dish, cheesy crust. You could get gluten free pizza or cauliflower crust.

This is my point, they are asking people an open ended question. Most people are gonna say, hell yeah I want to go out and get some pizza, because they have in their mind this delicious pizza hot and ready to go.

Then you get there, turns out you were just going to a friends to reheat some pizza hut they had sitting around from last week. And how can you argue, you all said “hell yea” when it was proposed.

All I’m asking for is for the devs to define “personal loot” before it gets voted in and D2R ends up a crusty soggy mess.

Well there is a lot going on there, warrior is the most competitive and popular class. Since most players have nothing to do except naxx, the buff meta has gotten really bad. Most of it comes down to your guild; they might not require consumes, or even supply you with them. They could farm out the world drops and drop them on easy schedules that work for everyone. And if you really like your guild (as I do) you put up with the bad parts of WoW because its worth it to experience the game together.

Given your interest in classic wow, I would assume you are going to give it another go when TBC comes out? Given that a lot of these issues are alleviated. However unless you are dead set on being a warrior, as this class takes a hit in the expansion.

But yeah I 100% agree with you, but its not enough to discourage me. The positives outweigh the negatives and I’m still playing, and the servers still have a lot of people on them. Its a successful game. nobody is saying Bliz massively messed up classic WOW. These flaws were always present, and the community calls for leaving things as-is, so its much more of a success in its state than a failure. Its true that the flaws are more exacerbated now than during vanilla, but I was also spending a year on MC progression in vanilla, whereas in classic we are nearly through Naxx. So the positives are also conflated, at least IMO.

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MicroRNA is referring to the screenshots of the recent “official poll” in which one of the questions is if you are interested in personal loot vs FFA loot.

This is a problem then since he is using it to fuel his fire and imply that the Devs are going in this direction, when all they did is ask a vague, open ended, subjective question in a survey that was only sent to a small selection of people. Not even close to a reliable fact to reference.

The rest of your post is brilliant. Its exactly true, everything right now is subjective and vague, and because there are ZERO Blue posts on this forum, likely by design so they dont get actually screenshotted, we just dont know.
You get jokers like Micro and Lonz and Mclovin accounts and all they do is spew their wants and opinions over and over as if they are fact and happening, when they are not.

We can only hope D2R devs stick with their QOL changes and some spirit of the game changes and focus on real stuff like balancing some skills out, making other skills more viable for Hell mode
IE Frozen Orb and Nova are favs of mine, they dominate Norm and NM but arent the greatest in hell without some gear, and Blizz or fireball is a better choice until you can go Light.

Less is going to be way more than changing anything major in the game.

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Why?

20 characters are here.

Why? What if I use my char to find items for my pal? I need it then as much as other paladins in my team.

Personal loot in the diablo franchise is what occurs in D3 in that when an item drops, it can only be picked up by a single player in a multiplayer game.

Other things such as drop rates and bind on account/trading are different.

In terms of the survey, I am still struck by how the question was worded (the use of “instead” and “for launch”). If I had designed a D2R survey, I would have phrased it differently. Something more like:

In D2R, do you favor keeping the loot system

  1. FFA-only
  2. Personal loot only
  3. Prefer the option of selecting either FFA or personal loot

Blizzard may have also had different surveys out there.

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