Completely agree, but the biggest issue for WW isn’t defense it is offense.
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I just want to jump in and say that you all are testing pro. The Barb community is in good hands.
Go Bears!!!
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I hear you on that one. But if you consider density a factor for Bloodshed you have to do that for Into the Fray to. Have you calculated the damage gain of WW and all your tornadoes for Into the Fray. Into the Fray does effect Slaughter proc rate too. If you do 4billion non crits at 60% crit chance with 500% crit damage increasing the crit chance even by 10% has a big effect.
But you are probably right with Bloodshed. It is an explosion with a radius. By itself it is only a sub4% damage gain (1 target hit) but if you manage to hit 10 mobs at once it is a pretty big gain.
Btw Bloodshed should be dps * crit_chance * critical_hit_damage * 0.2 * 0.2 * number_of_targets_hit right?
Slaughter does insignificant damage in a Wastes build… only build that buffs Slaughter is IK 6-piece.
No. Almost all your direct dps is from critical hits. With 50 chc and 500 chd 6/7 of you damage are critical hit. But you rather have ~65 chc with BR and WB.
Let’s calculate it out and see how it turns out. (First, Jako is right that Slaughter is basically useless in this build, since the Wastes set doesn’t buff its damage).
So, with perfect gear, and BR + WOTB active, your WW barb is going to be running with 67% CHC and +610% CHD. That means that out of every 1000 hits:
330 are going to be regular hits, each of which does X damage, for 330X total.
670 are going to be critical hits, each of which does 7.1X damage, for 4757X total.
Grand total there is 5087X.
4757 / 5087 = 0.935, i.e. 93.5% of your total damage comes from your critical hits. And our average hit is going to do 5.087X damage. Let’s call this amount, the amount you do with an average hit to an enemy, “average damage”.
So your Bloodshed damage would be (average damage * .935 * 0.2 * 0.2 * # of targets hit), or more simply, (average damage * .0374 * # of targets hit).
At 27 enemies hit, your Bloodshed damage will be (1.01* average damage). At 100 enemies, Bloodshed would be (3.74 * average damage). So, an enemy standing next to you would be taking nearly 4 times the damage they would from your WW hits alone.
We’ve also got to account for area damage. When AD procs, it hits everything within a 10 yard radius. The number of enemies you can have within a 10 yard radius of a particular point varies on mob type, but it’s generally between 15 and 30, with some significant exceptions on either end (Demonic Tremors and Armaddons on the low end, Swarms + Maggot Brood on the high end).
You can run with up to 178% AD using WW (this is how much Wroboss used). Let’s say that on average, when you’ve assembled a big pile of mobs using spear, each enemy on the interior of that pile can proc AD onto about 23 other mobs. With each enemy within the AD range of 23 other mobs, they will take (average damage * .2 * 1.78 * 23), or 8.19X average damage, from AD.
So, when running Bloodshed, in a big pile of mobs where your direct WW and your DD’s can be scoring 100 hits, an enemy standing near you will be taking (1X average damage from WW hits + 3.74X average damage from Bloodshed + 8.19x average damage, from AD), for a total of 12.93x average damage.
Now let’s talk about Into the Fray. This ability raises your CHC by 1% for every enemy within 10 yards. Since we’re assuming 23 enemies within this radius for AD, let’s do the same for ITF. This will take you from 67% CHC to 90%. CHD is still +610%.
So out of 1000 hits:
100 will be non-critical, and deal X damage, for 100X total.
900 will be critical, and deal 7.1X damage, for 6390X total.
Grand total is 6490X damage.
6490 / 5087 = 1.276, or 27.6% more damage than we were dealing with our average hit using our Bloodshed setup.
So, the AD dealt to an enemy would be (average damage * 1.276 * .2 * 1.78 * 23), or 10.45x average damage.
An enemy standing near you would take (1.276X Average Damage from WW hits + 10.45X average damage from AD), for a total of 11.73X average damage.
So that’s 12.93X average damage for our Bloodshed setup, 11.73X average damage for our ITF setup.
You could assume certain mob types that would give you a tighter grouping and more CHC from ITF, but this is also going to mean more hits factored into Bloodshed, and besides, your CHC can’t get any higher than 100%, while the number of enemies you can hit to trigger Bloodshed has no real cap. How many mobs do you think Wroboss is hitting here?:
Bottom line, I’m pretty sure Bloodshed is better, particularly in a good rift, though ITF is certainly good too. Based on the numbers it looks like it’s going to give you about 10% less damage, or a bit less than 1 GR.
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For sure for Hi-CDR gear (that’s means another dmg rolls loss) there’s kinda diminishing here, but if not - it’s definitely a case
For sure Bloodshed >> Into the Fray, unless for special local tasks (Elites hunting, rise up some damage @ low Plvl, etc.)
NO WAY. NEVER.
- Parthans DR is MULTIPLICATIVE - so there’s a cap.
- It’s not a Raekor / MotE builds - so there’s not stun / freeze SKILLS by default here (just [defensive] Ground Stomp and some low % items rolls)
- Mobs goes IMMUNE since couple of seconds of the fight
- Crowd dies FAST, but not Elites
- Mostly USELESS on RG
I understand your impression
It’s sounds like IDDQD (but isn’t)
- It’s a kinda placebo effect b/c “best enemy is [dead or at least] stuned enemy”, since it cann’t hit you - so you still take only Elites elemental dmg
- Key word is “fresh”
- I don’t want to start Any blasphemous rumours But I think that Blizz’s Got a sick sense of humour And when got banned I expect to find them laughing ©
That’s why I never use [and recommend to] 3rd party stuff (th or smth - idk exactly) since it’s against EULA - but you could easy find D3 clips on Youtube and [even] on Stream, where you can see those numbers (stun mobs qty, APD DR) in real-time on screen overlay - and they’re not so huge as you want: just about 20% in average, as I told you previosly…
I’m pretty sure it’s additive. Also, whether it’s multiplicative or additive has nothing to do with whether there’s a cap… which there isn’t.
Yeah, but WW attacks super fast. You’re going to proc that freeze or stun on a lot of mobs in density, fast. It’s actually better that the % isn’t that high, that way you aren’t building up their CC resist as fast.
What? No.
What’s that got to do with APDs vs Mortick’s? Every WW variant has big trouble killing elites, even using Furnace. Which bracer you take isn’t going to make any difference. Once you’ve killed the trash, you either need to leave that elite behind, or tow them to new density. More than 90% of your total damage output comes from density-based mechanics: Bloodshed and Area Damage. Trying to kill that elite standing alone is a recipe for failure.
Pretty good on RGs with adds, totally useless otherwise.
Now look, I’m not saying that the highest WW clears won’t eventually use Mortick’s. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But as of RIGHT NOW, the highest WW clears have used APDs. If this bracer were as useless as you make it out to be, those players would have been dead, dead, dead.
I think that’s pretty much the bottom line: lots of great players have used APDs, to good effect. APDs are good. Mortick’s is also good. If you want to use Mortick’s instead of APDs, go right ahead.
Pretty good on VERY FEW RGs with adds
“A lot” goes “a little” for me also so fast (but not Elites)
K, couple of cycles (dozens of seconds)
I don’t know what else to tell you, other than to say again that if what you’re saying were true, nobody ever would have been able to clear above GR 120 or so with WW.
Same thing with CoE leapquake. Arch did 130 with just APDs for defense. No BoM, no Esoteric. Obviously, he’s getting a lot of mitigation from APDs.
This “20% on average” stuff is nonsense. You can’t have an average when the number of mobs near you, and the number of stunned/frozen mobs, is always changing. Doesn’t make any sense.
Not sure why there’s any debate about Parthans. They are, to date, the best in slot bracer for WW.
Could Mortick’s take over for the Crimson variant? It’s possible, but I’m not convinced–and won’t be until I see some clears with them.
Parthans do not cap. They provide more mitigation than any item in the game, including Band of Might. Yes, they take some careful monitoring, and yes, they require you to manage your CC applications, but they’ve been the go-to bracer for a reason.
They do not provide “20% on average.” I don’t know where you got that nonsense, much like the nonsense about “useless vs RGs.” This is WW we’re talking about, and and it’s always going to require fishing, including for RGs.
APDs require good attention to detail and alternating between mobs to keep the most you can stunned.
But APDs do not have a cap. You multiply your incoming damage by 0.88 for each enemy giving you a buff from Parthans. Because it is multiplicative, you’ll never reach 100% damage reduction. But if you have 10 enemies?
1,000,000 damage
- 80% reduction from Armor/Resistances
200,000 damage
- 50% from Wastes
100,000 damage
- 50% from Ignore Pain
50,000 damage
- 25% from Mantle of Channeling
37,500 damage
- 12% from 10 enemies giving Parthans (72% damage reduction)
10,444 damage
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It is. < 100%
It’s multiplicative. Go Reddit plz.
O/c you must have any defence then @GR130!
I using BoM - so I go SAB for some more offence, since I almost never dying while pushing, but haven’t enough damage
When changing BoM to APD - diametrically different story begins…
@10k Plvl. Not sure if he needs APD ever at this lvl…
K. Got it. Agree. Done
Ok, we obviously need to set up an in-game test to see if we can determine whether APDs are additive or multiplicative.
Best way I can think of is probably to use a Necro to lure some enemies to those shock towers in pandemonium fortress, then pop land of the dead to freeze everything, and see whether the damage taken from shock is zero or not.
I may try and run that tomorrow.
BTW, Jako, where’s our video of lag-free WW!??
We discussed that in discord and determined Jako is fired.
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There technically is a cap and that would be how many monsters you can squeeze into 25 yards. You need to remember 25 yards in this game isn’t very big.
It is not like you can fill up a screen and have all those monsters providing you with damage reduction.
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There’s a reason we use Rage Flip and Ground Stomp, and there’s a reason WW only fights in density.
Let’s please not start with the technicalities. “But guys, there’s only so many, blah, blah.”
Plenty of folks have pushed plenty high with Parthans. Anyone who has pushed knows what the item is capable of.
We get that, they have also had a looooooong time to do so. The new items haven’t been out long and time will tell which is better. This does not negate the fact that they do cap out. I am not saying which is better or worse since there hasn’t been enough time to work that out. I will say it is obviously better for the lower levels of pushing which WW struggled with before.
WW build went from needing damn near perfect gear to even think about pushing to now just needing okay gear to reach 114. I don’t know about you but I play on season and I barely pump 40-80 hours into a season so this means I have just been given another build to play with. WW for HC was always a no go for me.
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APDs are almost assuredly multiplicative unless something recent has changed.
I did spend a night trying to get a good map with lots of density to show I don’t have problems in single player. I did not get any good maps though. I’ve been having crappy luck with GRs. (That was the night I made the vacation from Barbarian post actually). Probably made 20 GRs and the best maps I could’ve maybe used were Core of Arreat maps with mediocre density. But since my character is so weak, I can barely stay alive long enough to really pull any mobs.
And so unfortunately it’s low priority for me to prove this. Like I said a couple weeks ago. I work 50 hours. I’m in grad school. I got other things to worry about. I’ll revisit it down the road. But I’d much rather use my D3 time pushing my Sader or leveling my gems. But I’ll get some BK Swords again where I can roll off the damage and open a GR90 like I did last time. Not sure when though.
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AKA Zodiac’s procs eater