What I HATE about Diablo IV Skill System - A Case for Character Building

Just watched the Systems overview, and here are my thoughts on the skill system.

Right now D4 skill system is in a very early state and is likely to go through lots of changes,so I urge the community to pitch their ideas to the Devs.


What I LOVE


Let’s start off with the positives-

What I like in Diablo 4 is that the Skills have actual damage values like in D2.

And

You can level up the Skills. Suppose Fireball deals 50 damage, then next level 60 damage, then 70, etc.

When you level a skill, regardless of what weapon you have, you will deal the damage on the skill (subtracted by enemy toughness).

This leads to Character Building, where you character feels like an entity all on its own before items even kick in. In an RPG game, this is key to giving the player the feeling of being a Particular Character.

In Diablo 3, you don’t feel like Character, you feel like the whole class itself. I am not a Spirit Warrior (one who uses all 6 spirit spells) from the Witch Doctor class. I am the Witch Doctor class itself. I can swap the Character Elements like they are nothing but items. Put on Carn mask and Zuni, I am now Carnevil Wd, Put on Jade items, I am Jade WD.

Diablo 3 made things too fluid and destroyed the Character Building aspect of an RPG. On the other hand, Diablo 2 accomplished character building pretty well. If you were a Werewolf Druid, you were a Werewolf Druid and nothing else. You didn’t have to cast any spells or summon any minions, you started off in Werewolf form and you simply played a Werewolf Druid. The character being the Werewolf, and the class being the Druid.

In Diablo 4, this aspect is still missing. I will talk more about it later. But the first starting point for giving each Character their own identity is giving each skill it’s own damage and other values that you can level up. Then giving the player access to those skills from the start and allowing them to level it up, is what leads to Character Building.

When you give each skill it’s own damage value, then you can do Additive Buffs.

In Diablo 3, the multiplying buffs have gone rampant and ruined the itemization. They should largely be avoided in Diablo 4 and used only sparingly. x 1000%, x 10000% to damage type of stuff should not be in Diablo 4.

Like if your Fireball deals 200 damage, there can be an item that adds 50 more damage, and another that adds 70 mode, giving you 320 Fireball damage. If I level up my Fireball to 500 damage, then with my items I am at 620 damage. meaning I always get 120 more damage, whether I am dealing 100 damage or 1000.

With multiplicative buffs, things scale up more and more the bigger the numbers get. So at 100 Fireball damage, 50% more damage is 150 Fireball damage. But at 1000 damage, it becomes 500 damage. It really goes out of whack and becomes much harder to control at higher damage values.

So I think getting away from 200% weapon damage (multiplicative value that can get out of hand) to 200 damage (a fixed value that can be managed better) is a great change.

That sums up what I like so far.


What I HATE


In Diablo 4 there are no skill trees, everything is swappable and maxable like in D3.

This is not good with regards to Character Building.

(note I am only talking about Skill Trees, not the Talent Tree. The Talent Tree should reinforce the Skill Trees, and should be a secondary element to character building. Talent trees looks good so far. I may share more thoughts on them later on.)

Let me lay out Diablo 4 skill system for you - Playing a Druid, you will first get some storm skill generator, then some shape-shifting skill, then a summoning skill then some other random thing, then some next random thing. You are switching skills on the go, playing with any skill, swapping back and forth.

Sounds good right?

No, it’s actually terrible.

When I pick Druid, I want to be the Werewolf. I don’t want to use Storm or Summons. I don’t want to throw rocks around.

I want to transform to a Werewolf and slash my way through enemies right from Lvl 1 because -

“I am a Werewolf! I don’t want to learn how to summon minions. Take your elemental magic and shove it. I don’t want none of that. I want to learn to be a Werewolf, the best there ever was! As a Werewolf, I want to learn more powerful skills that make me a stronger Werewolf.” - my thoughts when I was younger, playing Diablo 2.

Devs, can you stop forcing me to use storm, werebear, summon, etc random skills when all I want be is a Werewolf Druid?

Open up Skills from each Tree (each theme) right at the start.

Use Diablo 2 as inspiration (but not as a rigid template because who wants to wait till Level 6 to be a Werebear? Give me that sh** at Level 1 so I can run around be a Bear right from the start. This is where D2 messed up btw.)

For Diablo 4, it should entice the player like so -

  • Hey you like being a rabid Werewolf and slashing things Mach 5 speeds?
    Start putting points into Shred, spirit generator, at level 1.
    Take Ravenous Bite, for lifesteal, at Level 6.
    Take Rabies, a spreading poison (cast-and-forget), at Level 12.
    Take Infectious Wounds, enemy debuff, at level 18.
    Take Furious Wolf, an attack speed buff, at Level 24.
    Take Full Moon, Ultimate Transformation, at Level 30.
    _
  • Hey you want to be a Storm Druid that casts lightning and tornadoes?
    Start with Wind Shear to build spirit at 1.
    Take Twisters that stun at 6.
    Take Storm Armour that protects you at 12
    Take Tornado that’s your BIG damage at 18.
    Hurricane, a passive damage ability, at 24.
    Cataclysm, Ultimate destruction ability, at 30.
    _
  • Hey you like being a massive Werebear and stomp on your enemies?
    Start putting points into Maul at level 1.
    Take Pulverize at Level 6.
    Take Trample at Level 12.
    Take Roar at Level 18.
    Take Hungry Hungry Werebear at level 24.
    Take Grizzly Rage at Level 30.
    _
  • Hey you want to be a Summoner Druid and just run around with an army of animals?
    Start with Ravens at Level 1.
    ->(Passive - Summon Ravens. Active - Attack with your Equipped Weapon dealing X damage. Ravens sometimes Blind your targets)
    Add the Vine Creeper at Level 6.
    Add the Wolves at Level 12.
    Add the Oak Sage at Level 18.
    ->(Passive - Summon an Oak Sage that buffs health. Active - Gain Life on Hit for 5 seconds)
    Add a Mighty Bear at Level 24.
    ->(Passive - Summon a bear. Active - The Bear Lunges towards the target location and stuns all targets for seconds)
    Add the Summoner’s Call at Level 30.
    ->(Your Minions deal more damage for the duration of the spell)
    _
  • Want to be an Earth Bender and show the avatar how it’s done? :wink:
    Start with Earth Spike at 1.
    Boulder - 6
    Bulwark - 12
    Petrify - 18
    Fissure - 24
    Volcano - 30

And you can mix and match to your liking.

You can be a Werewolf with Wolf minions, you can be a Storm Druid who sometimes Mauls his enemies and unleashes his inner Bear on them.

There are Pures and Hybrids. (Unheard of in D3 but a common theme in D2, which what made D2 special for me)

Notice that these are all Characters. When you play them, you feel like a real person in Sanctuary with certain tastes and passions for learning specific types of magic.

This is an RPG element that is lacking in Diablo 3 and currently also lacking in Diablo 4.

Jang, Diablo 4 is not even out, how would you know?

We just went over this.

When you feed the player storm skill at level 1, werewolf at level 2, werebear at level 3, then the player feels like a Class rather than a Character. They don’t feel like they are playing someone from the Druid background, who likes to specialize in their preferred magic and skills.

Playing a Character vs a Class - This starts at the Skill Tree. And Diablo 4 needs one.

But Jang, in Diablo 2, if you were new to the game you would have to waste points in different skills to see how they would work, to see if you would like to use them. This is not friendly to new players.

In Diablo 2, certain items would drop that would grant you levels in particular skills in which you had no points, allowing you to see what other skills feel like, to see if they would interest you in learning them and mastering them.

But Jang in Diablo 2, if you started off as Werebear but later decided that you wanted to be a Storm Druid, then you were stuck. Sure you had a Character, but you had to restart your Character.

If we allow players to swap their character as fluidly as D3, then we lose out on the RPG fantasy of playing a Character and we end up playing a class, we end up playing a set of items.

This is why Sets are so prevalent in D3. The Devs are trying to create the Character Building from Diablo 2, but using items isntead of Skill Trees. This leads to a game that is item-focused, and not focused on Character Building.

Items should support skills, not the other way around. In Diablo 3, you get items and you just swap your skills to whatever OP drop the game throws at you.

In Diablo 2, you played with a certain Character in mind and reinforced that playstyle with items. That is called Character Building.

Back to your concern -
You are a Werebear and want to be a Storm druid.

What you would do is either start a new Character “Mr. Storm” and level him up and find the right gear. Or you would collect Items on your Werebear, that will benefit your Storm Druid, and then when you have a good amount, you equip your power levelling gear to get your Storm Druid up to speed and then you equip your Storm Druid gear on him and you are good to go.

In the Fantasy world of Sanctuary, this is like a Werebear father passing on heirlooms to his son who is into Storms. Your Characters are unique entities with their own personalties based on the skills you have levelled up and the items you use to reinforce the skills.

Here we build Characters and play as Characters rather than collect Sets on our Class.

Look even if the Devs focus on Legendaries in Diablo 4, you are going to run into “Legendary Set” type of itemization all over again. Collect A, B, C, X, Y and Z set of Legendary items and swap your skills to use those items.

This is just another form of Set items ruining Character Building. Except these Set items are orange and labelled as Legendary.

Character Building comes from the Player wanting to specialize in skills that are locked in with skill points. You cannot specialize into items, they are not fixed by their very nature.

You need Skill Points to lock in and preserve your Character’s traits.

Then you need Items so you can advance that Character further.

This starts with Skill Trees and requires Open-Ended itemization to reinforce the skills you pick.

This is Diablo.

A Druid, a Barbarian, a Sorceress, is a class.

In a Class you have various Characters who have their own interests and passions. Having Skills trees like Diablo 2, allow the Player to build those Characters who have their own interests and want to specialize in certain forms of magic.

This is a very different type of game than one that is focused on collecting Item Sets and swapping skills to use them. Items should reinforce Skills, not the other way around.

RPG elements like Character Building need to be at the center in Diablo 4, otherwise it will run into the same issues as Diablo 3.

It all starts with designing a solid Skill Tree and Diablo 2 skill tree is the place to start.

Thank you for reading.

184 Likes

Yes, thank you!! I don’t like the Skill Point System, bring back the Skill Tree please🙏🏻

46 Likes

Very well put.

The Skill Tree needs an additional level of depth to it. I’d like a system where it is

  • Skill X points unlocks a tree with different modifiers whether these be strictly damage, impacts the attacker/attacked, or adds an element. Something that makes sense for the skill

  • Talent tree then further augments the skills and adds unique properties to the characters general theme

The Talent Trees just need more meat which is fine at this point in time but, yeah, I 100% agree that the skill system needs more depth (wire framing) to it than currently exists.

25 Likes

Blizzard, bring back the D2 skill tree and then do a talents thing, but don’t make a talents tree if it is going to lead toward crappy gear. And so, also bring back the D2 gear, charms, jewels, runes and gems.

30 Likes

Let me get this straight.

When you place points in a Skill say Barbarian’s Frenzy in the Skill Tree Page -

Then at a certain level, Frenzy opens up the Skill Talent menu where you augment the skill Frenzy with various D3 Rune-like modifiers.

Then there is a separate Talent Tree, which is full of passives, entirely different page, that augments your Skill Tree Choices and your individual Skill Talent menu Choices.

Is that what you are saying?

3 Likes

This is often cited as a detriment to the skill tree system, but the truth is:

So what? This is fine.

ARPGS are about rerolling characters using different builds and specialising them. The sooner these much-sheltered “new players” are exposed to this, the better.

In a new ARPG I enjoy the experience of starting my “jack of all trades” character to try out all the skills. Once I find the skill I like the look and gameplay of, then I’ll start a different character and focus on the skill.

24 Likes

It’s not even a complete game yet, things are in “testing”, and things can change.

2 Likes

You are exactly right, I enjoy many things about D2 LoD, one of them is playing with builds and making mistakes along the way, It’s how I learned to build my own unique builds.

It’s the same playing on hardcore, I learned how not to die, by dying.

19 Likes

I was a big proponent of D3 skill system upon launch because it seemed to solve all the problems of D2 skill system. I later realized that it actually messed up the core gameplay and the fantasy of playing a hero in Diablo.

When the foundation stone is laid wrong, the whole game falls apart.

20 Likes

This is the same problem with many of these legendary powers they are showing. Like some legendary for either the barb or druid was summoning lightning traps when you attack.

If I want to play a character that uses lightning traps, that’s the character I would have picked in the first place. I didn’t pick the barbarian for random elemental damage to be flying everywhere.

They say “customization” every other sentence, so let’s actually see it. Don’t give me some trash talent that gives 3% movespeed. Let me actually chose the effects that I want to play with, not slap them all on legendaries for RNG decide for me.

10 Likes

That’s why people are voicing their concerns now, as opposed to later when things are finalized and can no longer be changed. It would be futile to voice concerns after things are already set in stone.

14 Likes

To a degree:

I think the Talent Tree should focus on modifying your archetype, so say in D3 terms, you being a 2-H or 1-H Barbarian, whether you want to a Damaging Marauder style or more of a Brawler style in terms of adding abilites or augmenting damage based on certain triggers being hit:

The ‘skill tree’ idea would be similar to the Runes but would require actual investment and should be more about adding things to the skill than just a stack-stick modifier.

3 Likes

I personally hate having to start over in an arpg when i realize ive pumped x number of points into a skill i dont want to use anymore.
Grimdawn got this right.
I want to invest in a certain playstyle, but then be able to respec when i want to.

If im a bear druid and decide i dont like it, i should be able to go to town and pay some gold and respec into a caster druid, or summon druid.
Its not as free as d3, where i could swap items and skills right before a boss and be a totally different build, but it also doesnt make me start the game over because i made i silly mistake early on

20 Likes

Agree

I’d like a semi-rare item like [name escapes me] item that allowed you to socket a weapon in D3. Something like that to enable respecs. This does two things:

  1. It makes respecing have a cost so it feels impactful but isn’t a crazy cost
  2. It is a tradeable item that has value and could become a baseline currency.
6 Likes

I think a freely tradeable, semi-rare item that allows a full respec would be a great middleground between d2 and grimdawn’s respective respec mechanics

5 Likes

We need a Tree Skill, like Diablo 2, it’s the perfect formula. And avoid + % damage affixes.

8 Likes

Plus this would allow for some decent in game economy moments. You have an Item I want, I got this fancy Respec item. But I think also having respec cost gold would give gold more usefulness. Plus they could make it pricey, so if you make a mistake in choice early on, you have to play further for gold in order to respec. or you can’t respec til a specific level.

3 Likes

Ill go ahead and say this here.
The diablo 3 skill trees were bad.
At the time they were ok-ish. But that was almost 20 years ago. They havent aged well.

One of the worst things they could do is just recreate the old d2 trees with better graphics.

3 Likes

Character building, yeah right. Everyone and their dog followed a guide in D2, max out damage dealers and masteries, one in prerequisites, one in some utilities and the rest in synergies.

D3 runes and re-spec on the go is far far superior to that.

14 Likes

The D3 system is absolutely terrible, the D2 system is completely superior to it in every aspect.

28 Likes