What I HATE about Diablo IV Skill System - A Case for Character Building

[OnePunchGus-1678]

I understand your concern, but it’s waaaaay too early. What we saw are the beginning stages of alpha, so I wouldn’t worry much since things will change quite a bit.

On a positive note, it looks like this new team is taking development very seriously. A few things I liked were:

• You can’t respec skills (so you will HAVE to choose wisely)
• Runeword combinations will work like POE gems.
• We are not defined by sets any longer, we can freely equip anything.

With that said, another thing to take note of is how they are acknowledging the competition (Last Epoch, POE, Lost Ark), and even taking some ques from them. Some players will shake their fist at D4 for “copying”…However, this is VERY good news. It means the team is taking notes on what works and what doesn’t with ARPG’s today, and they are even admitting to playing these games. They are very open to hearing the community too, which is also awesome, and what made POE so good too.

The Diablo 3 devs had their heads so far up their behinds that they never listened to the fans…But the D4 devs seem to be doing that now, and it’s awesome.

[JangBahadur-1968]

Masteries and 1- Pointers Passives like Warmth were all Passives and need to be moved to their own Passive Tree, or Talent Tree.

Which is what Diablo 4 is doing and it’s a step in the right direction.

As for Pre-reqs, they just need better utility. I understand there were some useless skills in D2 skill trees. These can easily be improved.

I think D3 actually solves this by separating Pre-reqs and Main Damage skills into Generators and Spenders.

Go back to D2 skills tree with this mechanic of Generators and Spender - You use Fire Bolt to generate Mana, then then Inferno or Meteor to spend Mana.

Now you actually need to put points into Firebolt because you’re gona be casting it quite a bit. It is Natural Synergy vs D2’s forced synergy mechanic.

D3 also limits total skills to 6. This is actually a good idea.

Go back to D2 Skills Trees with that in mind. No more putting 1 point into whole bunch of stuff and having 11 skills with a bunch of passives. It becomes condensed with a lot of trade-off and thus lot of build diversity. And remember your passive 1-pointers are getting more fleshed out in the Talent Tree.

So as you spec down the Skill Tree and unlock skills on it, you select your 6 skills that you will use. Each has a point-cap, and so you try to max them out.

Your skill points should be limited so that you are never fully able to max all of them.

Their limited nature makes them valuable.

The utility and differentiation of pre-reqs into Generators and main damage into Spenders, actually takes the D2 skill system and enhances with some good elements of D3. A hybridzation in this manner will make D4 skill system far superior than D2 and D3.

@lightstorm-6232

Character building, yeah right. Everyone and their dog followed a guide in D2

I actually never did that (except for MF builds).

I did look at guides to see what others were up to but mostly I just did my own thing. In D2, it was somewhat viable in hell.

In D3, I really wanted to play the Spirit Warrior, Witch Doctor (using all 6 spirit spells) but as much as I tried to make it work, it never did. Because I had no tools to make it work.

So the past 7 years, till now, I still want to make that Spirit Doctor build but there are still no tools for it.

If Devs add tools in Diablo 4 for players who just do their own thing, and allow us to do what we do at the higher levels (perhaps through crafting our own items), then that would be awesome.

[rcw-2543]

@OnePunchGus-1678

I understand your concern, but it’s waaaaay too early. What we saw are the beginning stages of alpha, so I wouldn’t worry much since things will change quite a bit.

They will only change in the right direction if concerns are voiced, especially in the early stages where all is open.

[JangBahadur-1968]

@OnePunchGus-1678

I understand your concern, but it’s waaaaay too early. What we saw are the beginning stages of alpha, so I wouldn’t worry much since things will change quite a bit.

Way too early is the perfect time to voice our concerns.

Once they settle into a certain game, then it will be too late.

So this is it man. Say what you need to tell them so they can build that early on or accept whatever they give you later.

@OnePunchGus-1678

You can’t respec skills (so you will HAVE to choose wisely)

This is because you can max all of them. It is a terrible design.

They need to return to D2, understand why it works and augment that system.

Like so - What I HATE about Diablo IV Skill System - A Case for Character Building - #22 by JangBahadur-1968

(it’s a link to a reply i made above)

@OnePunchGus-1678

Runeword combinations will work like POE gems.

Runewords are looking interesting, at the very least, for sure. Since their original role from D2 is going into Legendaries and Mythics, the new Runeword mechanic is necessary.

@OnePunchGus-1678

We are not defined by sets any longer, we can freely equip anything.

It changes nothing.

Read this part of my post -

@JangBahadur-1968

Look even if the Devs focus on Legendaries in Diablo 4, you are going to run into “Legendary Set” type of itemization all over again. Collect A, B, C, X, Y and Z set of Legendary items and swap your skills to use those items.

This is just another form of Set items ruining Character Building. Except these Set items are orange and labelled as Legendary.

Character Building comes from the Player wanting to specialize in skills that are locked in with skill points. You cannot specialize into items, they are not fixed by their very nature.

You need Skill Points to lock in and preserve your Character’s traits.

Then you need Items so you can advance that Character further.

This starts with Skill Trees and requires Open-Ended itemization to reinforce the skills you pick.

@OnePunchGus-1678

With that said, another thing to take note of is how they are acknowledging the competition (Last Epoch, POE, Lost Ark), and even taking some ques from them. Some players will shake their fist at D4 for “copying”…However, this is VERY good news. It means the team is taking notes on what works and what doesn’t with ARPG’s today, and they are even admitting to playing these games. They are very open to hearing the community too, which is also awesome, and what made POE so good too.

indeed it is.

I hope they copy what made Diablo a Diablo game -

Diablo 2

Copy Diablo 2 guys, trust in the heart of the series and you will make a good Diablo 4 game.

@OnePunchGus-1678

The Diablo 3 devs had their heads so far up their behinds that they never listened to the fans…But the D4 devs seem to be doing that now, and it’s awesome.

I gotta give credit to D3 Devs here. They did listen but they hadterrible underlying systems and so their efforts went into making a good game but not a good Diablo game.

If they Copy D2, augment it and add that into what they have right now - the new 3D engine, open world/open map, large areas, world bosses, key dungeons, new dark gritty graphics and horses… if they do that … man we will get a solid Diablo game!

[OnePunchGus-1678]

@JangBahadur-1968

I gotta give credit to D3 Devs here. They did listen but they hadterrible underlying systems and so their efforts went into making a good game but not a good Diablo game.

I don’t remember they did honestly, all I remember was how all of us fans saying we wanted a deeper skill system, and being able to make permanent choices. The only answer we got was a “No”. Because interchangeable rune skills was the best way to go. They didn’t even try, or run a beta test with fans.

Let’s be honest here, cross-developing a PC game with consoles will create worse design choices on the PC side of things because things need to be simplified for consoles.

[JangBahadur-1968]

@OnePunchGus-1678

I don’t remember they did honestly, all I remember was how all of us fans saying we wanted a deeper skill system, and being able to make permanent choices. The only answer we got was a “No”. Because interchangeable rune skills was the best way to go. They didn’t even try, or run a beta test with fans.

They did listen once all those systems were in place. What they should have done is what you said, run beta tests with fans.

But really, when you change so much. It’s hard to see where it will land.

After D3 released, I was actually for the D3 skill system. I loved it. It was only later, I realized how terrible it was for a Diablo game.

D3 is a really good game in itself but it is a terrible Diablo game.

@OnePunchGus-1678

Let’s be honest here, cross-developing a PC game with consoles will create worse design choices on the PC side of things because things need to be simplified for consoles.

This is not true. Look at Breath of the Wild.

What consoles limit is the amount of buttons. And I do think that D2-like Skill System (where passives and 1-pointers are moved to Talent trees) will benefit from a 6 active skills cap (for your 6 controller buttons).

See the post I linked to in my previous reply, where I explained why the 6 skill cap is good and how the D2 skill system can be upgraded.

[LadyPaka-2817]

You have too much free time, mate!

[OnePunchGus-1678]

@JangBahadur-1968

This is not true. Look at Breath of the Wild.

What consoles limit is the amount of buttons. And I do think that D2-like Skill System (where passives and 1-pointers are moved to Talent trees) will benefit from a 6 active skills cap (for your 6 controller buttons).

See the post I linked to in my previous reply, where I explained why the 6 skill cap is good and how the D2 skill system can be upgraded.

Oh I read your posting, it was solid. I agree with many points too.

As for Breath Of The Wild, not sure what you mean by that…But to rephrase, what I’m trying to say is that when a PC title such as Diablo becomes cross-platform-developed at the same time with consoles in mind, what eventually happens is that there may be an excellent idea that would be amazing for PC players, but then…It may not work for consoles…Then the compromises come in and eventually trickle upward to the PC version.

I strongly believe the design choices of D3 were because of this. Interchangeable skills? Sounds like an arcade game, and simple and easy decisions for “couch players” to make. 4 player co-op? Well, there are 4 controllers attached to a console, makes sense (mind you Diablo 2 had 8 player co-op).

Now, I have no issue with the game coming to consoles. Not at all, I encourage it, and it is also good for Blizzard to make more revenue for the game somehow. My only concern is when they are cross-developed simultaneously.

[Renidan-2107]

Yes!! You nailed the points!

Things in your list that are CRUCIAL for a diablo game for me:

• You should feel like a unique character and not a class, this means when you make choices of skills, it should MATTER, it should have weight behind it, I STRONGLY dislike that you’ll be able to max out every skill, let me be my own character and feel like my time invested has actually given me a character identity.

• In addition to the point above, the skilltree as it currently stands in D4 is very flat compared to D2. It feels like it’s just D3 skills but put into a combined flattened category, and instead of recieving the skills immediately after leveling, you are given this false sense of choice, since you’ll be able to max out every skill anyway. Please limit skill points on characters! I’m alright if you get additional skill points from certain quests and so on, but please do not make it an item drop.

PLEASE CONSIDER CHANGING THIS, BLIZZARD

i want the skill tree to be expanded upon, i would like to see something similar to D2 where the skill tree is divided to specific categories depending on the type skills you want to use. This allows for more variety of spells & skills aswell.

• Another great point is, please don’t make me forced to use certain skills. I want to do what i want to do. If i want to be a Ice sorc i want to make sure i spend a lot of skillpoints into ice abilities. But i don’t want to be limited to a few amount of spells per element just because the game is built around you using all types of spells always. This is Not fun. If i want to build a bear druid, I’d make sure i max out all the bear skills, i don’t want to ever transform into a werewolf. It’s good to have the choice to combo shapeshifting abilities, but i don’t want the choice of only being 1 form to be taken away from me. Let me be able to feel unique

One thing i’ve learned from playing Diablo 1, 2 and 3 is that Limitations to a character are the more important than anything if you want to make a game feel like an RPG and make it an immersive experience. You want your character to feel specialized and not a jack of all trades. So please don’t make us able to max out every skill. I would much rather have respeccing available as an option for a certain cost in-game - then you could still try out other builds but still be locked into that build and feel like you are now something entirely different.

I hope you listen, blizzard.

[TurboGandalf-21521]

The gameplay style and the improved darkness of the game looks very good. Also a lot of people confirmed the fluid, smooth and satisfying gameplay you have while slaughtering a lot of monsters.

BUT

Im totally in on what JangBahadur said.
The skill system needs depth and lots of opportunities to develop your character.
Now for the items:
These need to enhance your choice of skills and not determine your playstyle like we have it in D3.
Also a big advice for items and their stats: DONT SIMPLIFY THINGS!
If you just have a handful of different stats, you will have the problem of the game being too easy in terms of “What item should I take?”. In D3 its completly dictated by damage multipliers and you are just looking for the “right stats” and an ancient version. Item stats must be a little bit more complicated and there must be a lot of different stats to look out for. As a sorc in D2, you can take Magefist for the faster cast rate, or Frostburn for the additional mana pool or some yellow gloves with resistance if you need it. In D3 however, you have to take the set gloves to get the bonus, or you have to take exactly this one pair of gloves, which gives you a huge damage multiplier. I want to decide, if I go for better ressource management, better resistances, higher damage or even a special stat on a unique item, that boosts my choice of skills WITHOUT greatly harming the effectiveness of my build. If you do that in D3, you will loose a lot of effectiveness.
Also the part of leveling up will get more pointless like it is in D3, where it is absolutely pointless, because you drop some items, that you will just throw away, once you are max level.
And here is a reason why the D2 has been so amazing: If you played a fire sorc and you drop a Magefist, you will propably use it forever, even it is a level 23 item. While you level up, you may find things, that are relevant even for higher levels.

I´ve played a lot of ARPG´s like Diablo 1, 2, 3, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Torchlight, Path of Exile etc. and the more complex the skill system, the item system, stats and breakpoints is, the more joy it gives to the player experiencing the development of his character.
Also Diablo 4 will be compared with Diablo 1 and 2, regarding darkness, artstyle and lore and maybe a little bit in terms of gameplay. BUT: The main rival this game has to compete with, especially in terms of character development, replayability and endgame content, is Path of Exile. They have a giant skilltree and lots of options with the choice of your gear. But not just that. Its the endgame of PoE, that motivates to keep on playing the game and constantly adapting your character for new and harder challenges.

Character building is and will always be the main aspect of Diablo, after finishing the story. If you reduce this to the boring and simple style of D3, I guarantee you, that your game will loose a lot of players, a short time after it gets released.
Just one more tip from me, regarding endgame content: If you made a strong skill- and itemsystem that leads to an uncountable ammount of different builds with lots of different item and skill choices, then you need just one more thing: Long term challenges, where players have to adapt their playstyle and items to pass the next challenge.

Thank you for reading!

[charley222-1304]

not a fan of this new skill tree

dam why blizzard you can not make it right , most of your player base know what they want are you too dump to see it ? how to describe blizzard in 2019 you think you do but you don’t , and look now wow retail is dead and classic is full , give us the real diablo game and put d3 console ui and your crap of itemization in the trash plz give me a real skill tree and all my 12 skil , not some garbage 6 skill lock because you console market HE ARE PC PLAYER

[Alecta-2451]

@LukkaReborn-1280

D2 was NOT that great of a game and was NOT the pinnacle of aRPG’s.

Except it was. Do tell though, which ARPG do you think was better?

@LukkaReborn-1280

Runewords were great?

They were fun. They were endgame material. It’s ok if you don’t know how they work, it’s not important for a new player. Eventually though you will be able to find out. Tabbing out and looking for the information online is a first world problem. Besides, you can just implement a tutorial ingame and problem is solved.

@LukkaReborn-1280

The game pacing was slow and sluggish and trying to loot items off the ground was a game in itself.

Did you even play it when it was a new game? This sounds like a review from a player whose firset ARPG experience was D3. Even then. the game pace was not slow, it started off slow, just like every arpg. In fact, my fully decked out Sorceress moved faster than my Archon Wiz.

@LukkaReborn-1280

Mercs were a complete joke in d2 AND d3

Now I know for sure you didn’t play it, or maybe you were 5 years old when you did. I am willing to bet my Merc in D2 would be able to destroy all of your toons. He could solo bosses in Hell without a problem. In D3, the mercs are a joke however. Nice try though.

@LukkaReborn-1280

Skill Tree system was great? Not really, sometimes I had to wait till I was level effin 30 just to start the build I wanted to play because the main skill was at the bottom of the effin tree and there was no cap, which I think is a horrid concept in itself…almost as bad as a paragon system and the tree wasn’t that fleshed out at all, it was actually rather bland.

There is nothing wrong with getting access to certain skills at laters levels, this is how it usually works in ARPGs, D3 included.
The game is 20 years old. The skill tree system can and should be improved. The problem is that the one currently in D4 beta doesn’t seem like much of an improvement, but I’m sure it’ll change with feedback such as this thread.

[Kasey-1596]

@OnePunchGus-1678

I don’t remember they did honestly, all I remember was how all of us fans saying we wanted a deeper skill system, and being able to make permanent choices. The only answer we got was a “No”. Because interchangeable rune skills was the best way to go. They didn’t even try, or run a beta test with fans.

That didn’t happen at all. The biggest complaint about d2 was that you couldn’t Respec (you can now pretty easily so I don’t know why people are using D2 as an example of a game you can’t Respec in. It’s easier to Respec in D2 than Grim Dawn lol). Anyways, everyone was happy to see the skill system in D3. The only complaint is that it was built to initially lock you into 6 skill categories and you couldn’t use multiple skills from the same category. Everyone thought this was gonna be a great system. And it was at first. It wasn’t until later that it became a complaint and by then it was too late. D3 devs can’t redesign the whole skill system.

[Keyblade-6785]

Endugu. If you want D2 its on the Blizzard Store. D4 is hopefully different not a clone like your requesting.

[Kasey-1596]

If the talent system is done right then the skill system won’t matter much. I like the idea of being able to swap skills but talent system augments/buffs your character in specific things, so if there is no synergy between your skills and talents then it won’t matter that you can swap your skills as your talent tree decides what skills are worth using.

[Wyrmheart-1343]

@Renidan-2107

You should feel like a unique character and not a class, this means when you make choices of skills, it should MATTER, it should have weight behind it, I STRONGLY dislike that you’ll be able to max out every skill, let me be my own character and feel like my time invested has actually given me a character identity.

But that’s what YOU like. I don’t like that. I want to be able to respec on the spot. If I get bored of my current spell effects; I don’t want to have to repeat leveling and waste X hours of my life to just try out my other spell effects.

And that may seem like a strange concept; but most players actually prefer that. There have been many games where they started YOUR way (with the limit), and players kept asking for re-spec until it was added. And for the record; D2 was one of them. Re-spec was the single most requested feature for a whopping 7 years until it was added.

[Bolander-1515]

I agree with you here, it actually sounds like a good solution. I just hope that the talent system turns out to be a little deeper and with another layer of complexity than what they showed us now.

[Nightmare-2530]

Blizzard should use Diablo 2 as an inspiration item stuff like the immortal king enigma and heart of the oak, runes should be named as d2 and not some new crappy name, dont make it reminds us all of d3 and please do not make it console based make it an pc based version that could be nice, add 1 or 2 more skills to use at least that could be a game changer like I said dont be console or mobile based, but lets see I am not on the hype train ya great trailer but still, ,d3 was a joke they should move away from that kind of game cuz that’s not diablo I played diablo since it came out d1 is even better than d3, d1 and d2 is pure nostalgia, we need a cow level again and not a kids cartoon pink pony’s they really need to rely on d2 and make it better as well not just a graphical makeover talents should be the same I am pretty sure the paladin and necromancer assassin amazon will be added to the game later before adding new classes hope we start with these classes or else I will laugh they should add all old-school diablo classes and then add new on the later expansions its pretty important to make it as close as d2 and even better or else RIP all old-school veteran players knows d3 is far far far away from what we all expected in may 2012 rofl

[Moldraxian-1150]

It is always humorous to see people crap on D2 runewords but they never explain why they hate runewords. Then try default to the standard “Enigma broke the game” which is hilarious because every serious D2 player knows it is not the case.

[lightstorm-6232]

Basement dwelling neckbeards desperately trying to recapture their youth ls what might destroy this franchise.