path of exile’s got plenty of ways for that to work: Add in Talents or equipment that allows Spells or certain abilities to get a benefit from non-int stats, and give Each stat 2 or 3 Effects-- Strength for example Buffing HP makes it attractive to Both Dex and HP based Int characters, while at the same time being dump stat for those going Full Energy shield.
It CAN be done. it just takes alot of work and creativity.
That’s really not creative at all. It’s just filling a gap created by a flawed system to begin with.
My meteor now gains “strength” damage because of magic and I’m now tougher? And gear already has HP values so you just overlap with already existing stats/gear attributes.
You just repeated what I said people already do. Which is to add multiple effects to the stats that we already have, that have been done before.
All an ARPG really is is a fancy set visuals masking a set of code that compares numbers on mouse clicks. None of these systems are “broken” they all serve the exact same purpose of allowing the player to manipulate those numbers, be that direct input into the attribute or a surrogate for that attribute (i.e. a primary attribute like STR or DEX), equipping an item, adding a point to a skill or trait. All have the same end goal of modifying the numbers assigned to your character, I won’t speak for everyone here but I just want to be sure to have multiple venues to adjust those numbers which is far more interesting to me than just what item i assign to a slot (which i also like to do too).
That is correct all systems that involve the players input, be it attribute allocation, gear selection or otherwise do the exact same thing, they modify a number. That’s all player input is in an ARPG.
I disagree here, I think having different ways to tune the same number does make it more interesting, exactly how many ways is the “right” way…well that’s personal preference, mine just happens to be more than one. I also think by connecting secondary attributes under these primary attributes you get another opportunity to make an interesting choice about what you gain at the expense of something else. Do you want to get rid of skills and traits too as they may also modify a redundant stat, so where does “bloat” start? Should we take it to an extreme and really just only have monsters drop single attribute charms that you put in their assigned attribute slot and stop there? These are genuine questions for the developers, I’m by no means trying to call you out here, as I think your bloat comment is a valid one but for me an attribute system does not feel bloated.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from applying the same numbers to an ARPG as a table top RPG. Taking on a larger order of magnitude makes comparison identical if everything is adjusted by the same order of magnitude.
1000 vs 1800 is same thing as your 10 vs. 18 example I just added some extra zeros.
1034 vs 1836 is the same as 10.34 vs 18.36 but most people don’t want to deal with giant numbers or decimals at the table, small whole numbers are easier to quickly comprehend and do simple math with at the table, that is the reason small whole numbers are used in TRPGS. With a computer you can use those larger numbers decimals and now get a greater range of detail out of your system and the player is happy to accept it because the computer is doing the math and they get to see pretty colors.
In fact that’s actually part of the beauty of an attribute system like both clueso and myself have described and is used in D2 (and D3 to a lesser extent) and all ARPGS where a primary attribute that is a simple whole number impacts a number of thematically relevant secondary attributes, it is a much simpler and easier way for the player to interact with all those numbers and compare things.
And hey if all you want is gear to be the only way you manipulate those numbers, that is fine, that is your prerogative and I support you having your opinion. But I don’t agree with it. I think multiple systems (in my opinion four interconnected systems of primary attributes, item, traits, and skills), that are thematically relevant to the universe that is draped over this number comparison program, is better.
Broken not in that it fails to do number crunching. Broken in that it doesn’t accomplish anything useful for interesting character progression when you make numbers so big they become almost meaningless.
1000 to 1800 is the same as 10 to 18 in ratio. It might be even in mechanics, but it’s not for people.
The smaller number has a direct impact on the related rolls, going from +0 on an attack roll to +4 makes a really big impact on the chance to hit and the damage dealt in combat when you do D8 + 0 vs D8 + 4. A player can easily see that and understand that.
1000 to 1800 though? Small incremental damage boosts from potentially thousands of stats. Or small incremental armor values in D3’s case. It might be computer measurable, but it’s not really player measurable. You just know you’re stronger and do more damage and you’re tougher.
There’s no attachment there to a reasonable number.
And we have a way to manipulate those values outside of gear, the talent system and the skill system both do those.
How is a “strong” or “dexterous” sorceress thematically relevant to the universe when she doesn’t show any strength/dex based skills?
The theme doesn’t work. The whole point of the theme of strong characters, of dexterous characters, of magical characters was that the attributes they have are those attributes, not that they find other ones to use just for the sake of it.
I want to make a “smart” barb. No his primary attribute is still strength. The smart part is just flavor, it’s not there to enhance his main qualities, it’s there to enhance his side qualities.
That’s how rpgs work. But trying to shoe horn that into a damage based system? That doesn’t work. My buff sorceress flexes her muscles and because of her boots her magically conjured meteor does more damage?
The base stats system is not meant for arpgs. It’s for RP purposes. And I think it needs to change. I’ll get around to writing an example of what I mean by changing at some point.
Usefulness and meaningfulness of any system is entirely reliant on proper design and implementation of that system. Also this discussion has been a qualitative one for the most part. Any system can get bogged down by scaling of the numbers, that has nothing to do with the thematic aspect of the system or how interesting it is (which is entirely subjective).
Numbers are numbers. Whether people are comfortable dealing with them or not is a preference, but it does seem we can both agree on the fact that large numbers and fractions make many people uncomfortable and frustrated. That’s exactly what a system based on primary attributes attempts to alleviate. It boils down all those complex numbers into simple whole values that the player can interpret easier ( see my comments above on three attribute types).
I was not talking about scaling, that’s an entirely different issue, that is something all of these systems have to wrestle with and is part of the quantitative aspect of these systems design. Again any system is a balance of simplicity vs. complexity, the computer allows you to take that complexity and translate it into some flashy animation.
A D20 for example, gives you twenty different variables, where as a D6 only six, the question of how many options is too many again comes back to your bloat comment and my response to it where what I’m saying is, what you want is less and what I want is more and neither is “right” but I think things like auto assign buttons and such can give those who want to fiddle with attributes, like myself, the option to do so and those, like yourself, who are not interested in the system the ability to ignore it.
Yes, those are different ways of interacting with those numbers, same as an attribute system. Again you want less and I’d like more nothing wrong with either but that opinion doesn’t invalidate the individual concept of the systems.
Just because one player doesn’t enjoy that and is perhaps more interested in the action doesn’t mean others feel that way. What is being advocated here is more choice (I’m also advocating the further choice of avoiding that choice), and that impact is all dependent on how you design the system. What’s being suggested here is the idea of a system that uses primary attributes to impact a number of the same separate secondary attributes universally for each class. If each attribute impacts a separate set of something meaningful to the game play you can potentially make some really interesting choices for characters further deferentiating with in a given class (see my examples above on this).
RPGs are about taking on a role and playing it, they are about choice and customization of that role and are a balance of freedom of choice within a constrained system. The ability to deviate from the norm is part of the fun for some and having that option there hurts no one. If you want to stay on the tried and true track of a barbarian, cool do that. But why block someone else from deviating or playing a different way? Classes are made so that you have a base set of attributes and themes to start with. Now you can stop there and that’s fine, but some people like to further tweak within their class and this is a perfectly viable way to do that.
All ARPGs would beg to differ with you there, in fact I challenge you to name a successful ARPG that does not have some form of attribute system. And you are right it it serves a RP purpose something that is definitely meant for an action Role-Playing game, and a lot of people want that in this type of game. That being said I appreciate the plight of the player like yourself who’s role-playing preference stops at class selection and that’s why an auto assign system would let you avoid it entirely.
My point is not that we shouldn’t have attributes. My point is that we need a better attribute system.
I don’t think relying on an old school mentality for stats, strength dex int stam etc. is beneficial to advancing design.
People like to say don’t reinvent the wheel, as though wheels haven’t evolved beyond a rough stone shaped circle.
Give me a bit and I’ll write up my idea for a stat system that isn’t just bloating the same generic stats.
My system is not using STR, DEX and INT btw.
I also would be interested in seeing that.
I suck with words so it takes me a while to organize things and not make it a giant fricken wall of text. Although I don’t think I can avoid the wall of text. Maybe it’ll make sense though.
make a photoshop of it, just as I did.
Such as? I nvr had a problem at all with it. You put points where you want, you get 5 points per level up. Gear actually had stat requirements. I don’t see any issue with the system.
Getting hung up on the exact word used for the primary attribute category isn’t really important is it? I mean are you are telling me that
Power =/= Strength
Agility =/= Dexterity
Constitution =/= Vitality
and Spirit =/= Intelligence
Clueso, I’m curious under your system, and perhaps I missed this, how would your resource pool and health increase? in your graphic there is no primary attribute that effects that pool size? Would you do it where each class gets a base value and items and traits are the are the only way you enhance it? Would it be a totally separate investment of points?
Also in your system is it safe to assume damage and armor rests solely in items and skills? The reason I ask is because as is each point only provides a % increase or decrease to a secondary attribute and doesn’t provide a base value to it if i’m reading it correctly.
I’m going to be honest that is not what I got from your previous posts but I appreciate you clarifying your stance.
Awesome I look forward to seeing your suggestions!
https: //imgur .com/a/XMn9oRj
Hopefully any of this makes sense. I’m sure I missed a bunch of points I thought of before for my reasoning of things.
Strength
Constitution
Dexterity
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
glorious DnD stats
Because - at least in my opinion - the attributes in D2 were not distinct enough and not universally useful, besides allowing you to wear certain items.
haha, they are indeed very much inspired by STR, DEX, INT and VIT, and it definitely is a wink at them, however, there are differences:
Strength, in general is only associated with melee or at least physical damage, while Power increases all damage.
Dexterity and Intelligence have a certain association behind them, aka DEX = useful for increasing the damage of daggers/agile melee classes and for bow users, and INT being increasing spell damage and mana…
… and that is something that I wanted to get away from and create more universally useful attributes, which is why I chose to give them other names.
There actually is x% increased maximum resource on Spirit, but in regards to health I though that every character gets +x life via level up (maybe higher amounts at higher levels) and from items (via +x life and x% increased maximum life).
I also had the idea of every class having a similar, but different defense attribute:
*like a magic armor that surrounds the Wizard and absorbs flat damage
There you have the increased life pool effects.
This “Defensive Attribute” could spawn on all items and transform into the particular attribute of your character, so if you find an item with +15 “Defensive Attribute” on it and give it to a Barbarian, it will turn into Constitution and if you give the same item to a Wizard, it will turn into Ward/Protection.
Something similar could also work for the offensive affix (and the resource management affix)
I am not a 100% sure what you are referring to, but I’ll answer it in the derection that skills have a weapon damage component as well as an “Innate Skill Damage” component.
“Innate Skill Damage” means that even if you do not wear a weapon, you deal damage with a skill, as every skill would have a flat amount of innate damage.
For example, a Fireball might deal 200% weapon damage + 8.000 fire damage.
So even if you have no weapon equipped, your Fireball deals 8.000 fire damage.
The intent would be to have ~50% of a skills total damage come from the weapon and the other ~50% damage coming from the skill itself.
https://imgur.com/mfd7fzi
https://imgur.com/6ZTR6Fp
https://imgur.com/t58K6xK
Not sure if this answers your question, but it is the best answer I can give atm.
I will have a look at this and respond later.
For now I wanted to respond the the two posters above, but I will get back to you.
Thank you!
An attribute system should be a combination of Diablo 2 and Torchlight 2.
All weapon damage, including elemental damage, would be calculated based on strength and dexterity depending on the weapon type. All elemental damage would be increased by intelligence (or focus).
Every attribute would also have a secondary and tertiary stat. Strength would increase critical hit damage and boost armor OR provide a flat damage reduction. Dexterity would increase critical hit chance and dodge chance. Intelligence would increase resource regeneration and do something else… gives resistances or flat damage reduction if that isn’t given to strength… it depends on other things where it makes sense to have it. Alternatively, we could have an energy stat in addition to intelligence in which case intelligence allows you to strike with both weapons (if dual wielding) instead of giving energy and energy regeneration.
There are no caps nor diminishing returns for the damage calculations. The secondary and tertiary stats do have diminishing returns, and caps if applicable (wouldn’t cap energy regeneration or energy for example).
This will make an interesting attribute system. First of all, everything is potentially valuable in different situations. If you are dual wielding physical weapons, large amounts of strength for damage, modest amounts of focus and dexterity for their tertiary stats. If you dual wield elemental weapons, you could still go mostly strength, or you could go mostly focus. If you do physical 1h or 2h weapons, then its strength, dexterity or a mix of the two. If you do elemental 1h or 2h weapons, then you could focus on focus, or strength, or a mix of strength and dexterity, or all dexterity in the case of ranged. So for whatever you want to do, there is an attribute for you.
Its important to group stats like that so that you get a utility stat and a defense stat with the attribute that increases the applicable damage stat to make stats on gear more interesting. Let me explain. If I do physical damage, with a 2h mace (so that strength is the only relevant damage stat), I get a bunch of strength for damage, and a little bit of dexterity for dodge and crit chance before diminishing returns make it so that strength yields more damage and so I have a lot of armor and high critical hit damage. I’m missing resistances (or flat damage reduction) from intelligence/focus so that is going to be really valuable on gear. I’ve only got the modest amount of crit chance and dodge chance from dexterity before diminishing returns. Those are also more valuable on gear. Critical hit damage is not valuable because I already capped it by pumping strength because strength increases damage for my build without diminishing returns.
What that does is open up a whole big variety of what BiS items would look like. There wouldn’t be a “trifecta”, there would have to be at least three “trifectas” by virtue of each attribute offering a different “package” of stats.
And if the attributes were replaced by “Balance”.
Balance would be a way of individualizing the character without falling into what some players here call sameness.
I will try to do this within the context of the lore.
Genre -> Balance.
Sub Genre -> Angelic Part; Demonic part.
At each level the character gains 1 Balance Point that can be applied to 1 of the 2 existing Balances. After choosing the Angelic Part or Demonic Part he will have 5 points to distribute only on the side he has chosen.
Specifications:
Angelic Part: Applying the balance point here will release 5 attribute points to apply to the following attributes:
Righteousness (each point increases physical hit chance) - Your attacks are more accurate, decreasing enemies’ dodge chance when attacking, skills that have only 1 target have a (Righteousness%) chance of double damage.
Sacrifice (each point increases defense) - For each lost health you decrease damage taken by x% of the Sacrifice level.
Faith (each point increases pick up itens area) - Increases your chance of finding magic items by Faith%.
Perseverance (each point increases all regenerations (HP and Resource))- When you reach 0 HP, you recover HP by the amount of points you have applied for Perseverance. (perseverance drops to 0 and takes (HP - Perseverance seconds to return)
Demonic Part: Applying the balance point here will release 5 attribute points to apply to the following attributes:
Hatred (each point increases critical chance) - when striking the enemy repeatedly, each attack on the same enemy increases critical chance by (Hatred%)
Blood (each point increases HP and resistances) - for each killed enemy you gain (Blood%) health regeneration for (Demonic Part seconds)
Sadism (each point increases the chance of magic hit) - its control effects last (Sadism%) longer, and decreases (Demonic Part%) the chance of being interrupted.
Hopelessness (each point increases the viewing area) - increases (hopelessness%) the chance of finding runes.
It’s an idea, you can change everything, anyway.
I thought you would suggest about using D2 stat system for D4 and I am glad that your suggestion is actually better than D2 stat system as it actually feels impactful for your high level character.
However, I feel that resource cost reduction will be just as useless as D2 Energy stat. Cooldown reduction is acceptable though.
Cost Reduction could actually be a thing. Whirlwind is hungry.
In regards to your idea of different attribute for defense and offense for each class, I’m curious do you think that would be something that would fit better under a trait or passive skills system? My personal preference for primary attributes is to keep the system involving them universal across each class even though the behind the scenes math may be different (like your initial proposal) and then the traits and skill systems would be where you’d get into class specific effects on secondary and tertiary attributes. My concern for the player here would be confusion toward the system, as all of a sudden they have a new category that is the similar but slightly different under a system where all the other attributes are the same. No right or wrong answer here this is more a question of how you think of the theme behind the system. I think of an attribute system as a representation of my characters fundamental universal characteristics and then traits and skills as the place where class aspects are displayed, this of course comes from my preference to view character creation in a D&D-esque way.
Yes it does. I was curious where the base value resided and that answers it. The reason I was curious is if you have no numerical value for the secondary attribute a +X% increase/decrease of 0 is…well 0. So I was just interested where you were thinking those numbers would come from. Thanks for the clarification.
That is interesting. Not the way I would have done it (too much RNG for when it can proc), but we have done something similar (creating attributes that are usefull for all classes), but executed it in different ways
Thanks, glad you like it.
Resource Cost Reduction allows you to spam your skills more often without having to regenerate it.
The Resource Cost Resduction Affix only becomes “useless” in games like D3 where you already have massive amounts of RCR or ways to get massive amounts of resource back via sets and legendaries and if these would nor be so prevalent, than RCR actually would be useful.
Well, it fits both, but my personal preference would be to have them at the Attribute System and ever class has a different offensive and defensive attribute (and maybe even a different attribute for resource management).
you certainly have a point there that it would be confusing for new players. This issue eventually could be solved by calling the Attributes:
…and then let the affixes that spawn on item simply be called “+x to Offensive Attribute” and “+x to Defensive Attribute”.