In Diablo 2 there was an Attribute System in which you could spend points that you would gain via level ups into four different attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Vitality and Energy.
In D3 this system was removed and replaced with Mainstat and Vit that only could be found on items (later on the Paragon System as well).
I was hoping that now that D4 was trying to go back more to the roots of the franchise, they would bring back an improved version of Diablo 2’s Attribute System. You know, four different attributes that all do different things that you can spend points into that you get from leveling up… but instead it was dumbed down even further.
I know that at this point D2’s Attribute System is outdated and that it had many issues (I will not get into these issues now, because it would get off the subject too far), so I could imagine something like this:
° one attribute for offensive / damage increase
° one attribute for defense / reduced damage taken, life, resistances, etc
° one attribute for speed / aka movement speed, attack speed and maybe dodge chance
° one attribute for resource management / resource cost and cooldown reduction
https://imgur.com/v2duHG1
It is just fun to put points into things and it certainly would be interesting to find such attributes on items as well.
Thank you!
Edit: I want to clarify that gear does not have to depend on how much points you have in particular attributes.
Gear and items could be completely entangled., aka gear could have no attribute requirements so that you could wear items regardless of how much points you have in specific attributes.
What I miss the most about the stats are the gear requirements, so choosing to raise certain stats and not others you give up on half of the flavours of the month forcing you to look for alternatives.
That is actually something where I disagree. I definitely agree that there should be an attribute system, but it what gear you can were should imo not depend on your attributes. I can see that it has immersion and and RPG aspect to it, but overall it, but I personally disliked to put points in attributes just to be able to wear certain gear.
In the recent article it is mentioned that they try to simplify the maths. If this was true I guess there wouldn’t be any customized attribute system.
I’m still curious - how detailed did you customize attributes in D2? Wasn’t it “add everything enough to wear your gears, vitality enough not to die in one shot, and everything else to XXX”? I mean this is even less interesting than paragon points in D3.
Yeah, in D2 everything was “enough into STR and DEX so you can wear items, the rest into DEX”, but look at the imporved Attribute System idea that I show in my initial post:
https://imgur.com/v2duHG1
^^ that would make all attributes useful and not just VIT like it was in D2, especially when gear requirements get uncoupled from attributes. It also would allow much more meaningful customization.
It looks meaningful but why you need a such detailed customization? For point-based attributes, the biggest problem is that they shouldn’t do as much as affixes, or different affixes will become homogenized - when you can get either damage or attack speed from attributes and you need both, damage and attack speed on items become the same (unless the number ou can get from attributes is limited, which makes attributes unimportant).
Another problem is that today is not 2000 when D2 was released any more. Today in 2019, for such a complicated system most people will go online to search for a guide. For these people, the system increased game complexity and reduced smoothiness (for having to stop playing and find a guide once in a while) but doesn’t increase game depth.
As long as the game still have many systems to be customized in depth, it might be more wise to save those 99% players some time doing math on attributes.
Not unless the bonuses are multiplicative with each other.
If they are additive with each other, sure, then it would cause problems.
Example if you have 1000 damage and two sources of 60% increased damage, one from the attribute system and one from items, and the two sources are additive with each other you get
60%+50% = 120%
1000 ° 2.2 = 2200 damage
However, if they are multiplicative with each other, you get:
1000 ° 1.6 ° 1.6 = 2.560
Same thing goes for attack speed etc, which means that they wouldn’t be homogenized or unimportant.
I don’t recall ever having this limit my game experience.
Early game it only pointed me towards a stat that was too low to equip at my present level, so next level up I added enough to equip it. I don’t recall a single instance of the gear making me put unreasonable points into a attribute that was not reasonable for my class
Late game it does keep intelligence users from equipping heavy armor, and strength users from equipping high intelligence items. But those items dropped with affixes that suited their intended use be it Int or Str. So it was no big deal anyway.
One of the realities of the attributes are that they can and will always be min/maxed. I get the desire to have a bunch of little knobs to play with in order to get the most of out of your character, deliberately be sub-optimal, or ‘make the character yours’, but the reality is that they are just that - a bunch of little knobs to adjust when you should be killing monsters. This is the reality of the design direction, just like how other ARPGs have other (equally valid) design directions as we’ve seen in Torchlight 2, Grim Dawn, and Path of Exile.
There is a valid cause for wanting something that seems to have a little more depth than Attack/Defense/Health. We’ve seen some early indicators with +Critical Chance for example. Just keep in might that every system can be min/maxed and having a design element for the sake of it is not always for the best.
My point is that a system like the one I show in my initial post allows for more customization than just being able to wear the gear you would wear anyway.
System like the ones I show above allow you to choose if you wanna be more of a glass cannon (by putting all or most of your points into Power), it allows you to focus more on maneuverability (by putting points into Agility), by becoming more of a tank (with Constitution), or by allowing you to use your skills more often (Spirit) or a mix of these.
You can make a fast moving Sorcerer that is more offensive (Agility + Power) or a fast moving Sorcerer that is more defensive (Agility + Constitution), etc. D2 did not give such a level of customization and neither do D3 and currently D4 does neither.
Yes, some people will do that, but there are also a not insignificant amount of people who have a different playstyle that they prefer over “the best one”. For example: there might be people who like the sensation of attacking faster even if that causes the build to deal less damage than if they would go with something like x% increased damage, or there are also people who prefer to be tougher rather than dealing more damage, even if it is not the top thing to do…
The existence of something that is “the best” is not a problem as long “the best” is not not significantly stronger/better than other options, whether that thing is an item, a skill, an attribute, etc.
Nothing is decided yet.
Again, just because there is something that is “the best” does not mean that everything that is “not the best” should be removed or even not considered. Furthermore, having the illusion of choice is better than not having a choice at all.
It’s dumb not to though, that’s the whole point of attributes. To wear plate and carry a huge weapon, you need strength. To master spells you need intelligence. To have the accuracy to master bow attacks and evade incoming attacks, you need dexterity.
It’s the foundation of making an RPG character in any game for a reason.
Blizzard is not being innovative by removing it.
It’s not overly complicated, it just makes sense.
If Blizzard wants to make a world that feels interesting and alive, they need to have rules in it that make sense and can build on eachother.
And you also need food, water and sleep to function and to stay alive.
Just because something is realistic does not mean that it translates to a good game mechanic.
I never once said realistic. It is a core mechanic to role playing games, and core to why we play the game in the first place. You are making a character, not just stacking bigger numbers.
Explain to me why every RPG ever made is wrong for including it.
Okay, fair enough, but you actually did not mention “core mechanic to RPG’s” either.
What you said can very much be interpreted as meaning realistic as well when you say that it makes sense that you need STR for large swords and plate, and DEX for accuracy for bows, etc
But what you also could do is to rename Power to e.g. “Offensive Attribute” that then changes to STR for Barbarians, DEX to DH’s Monks, Amazons, etc, and to INT for classes like Sorcerers, Necromancers, Wizards, etc. Problem solved.
EDIT: and make it so that Sorcerers, Wizards, Necros can not equip 2handed axes in the first place, while Barbarians can not wear bows or wands, and so on …
Attribute systems like this are just boring to me honestly. Using PoE as an example, you need X amount of Str/Dex/Int to equip gear and use gems, and outside of niche builds that stack one stat for scaling a particular unique, you basically ignore the stats outside of this. And even then, you generally get most or all of your required attributes incidentally on travel nodes in the skill tree, so you barely have to think about it once per character.
It just seems outdated as a concept. Even your revised version put forth in the OP seems like something from 20 years ago to me.
Gear does not has be dependent on attributes. Simply entangle them so you can wear items regardless of what and how much points you spend into your attributes.
The only exceptions would be tha your char is too low level or it is an item that your class can not wear, like Barbarians can not wear wands or staffs, and casters can not wear large 2handed weapons, etc.
But this is not an attribute system like that, since as I explained above, gear would not have to depend on how much points you have in what attribute. Gear and attributes could be completely entangled.