The Whirlwind Rend Nerf is effectively more than 7 Tiers

[insidious-1502]

@ElobaCarcen-2521

Why do people care about balance in Diablo 3, especially in the year 2019.
I mean, the game is pretty much dead. The vast majority of what would be the Diablo player base are playing other games.
The competition in this game is a joke. Perpetual Paragon (you can have more than 10K), random Greater Rifts. Why does this even matter to you guys?

My take as someone who has played since beta as barb main, dabbled in DH and Sader, but always mostly solo and casual to the point that I’m just under 1100 paragon.

Balance doesn’t matter to me for competition, but to allow me to main the class I want to main and not be at a huge disadvantage to other classes farming mats, gem upgrades, etc. It just isn’t fun if your favorite class since D2 is regulated to zdps in multi-player. There were long stretches where you had to be high paragon to even farm T13 in a barb,get kicked from split bounty games because people assume barb will be too slow etc. That’s not fun. It’s not about having as high clears on the LB as other classes (at least for me), it’s about being able to do basic game functions as well as the other classes.

@ElobaCarcen-2521

I haven’t played a Barb for years, but isn’t Whirlwind meant to be the AoE good for T16 kind of a build similar to DH Multishot (with either Marauder or Unhallowed Essence)?
I don’t see DHs clearing 140 with Multishot, so why are Barbs complaining, that they can’t clear 140 with Whirlwind?

A couple points here.

1. until recent patches WW didn’t even have enough juice to effectively farm T16, without tons of paragon and perfect items with very specific rolls. You got into a catch 22 that you needed to farm perfect gear and paragon for your farm build…
2. Many love WW for nostalgia reasons of being an iconic skill from D2 barb, and D3 putting an emphasis on clear speeds for everything meant that the build being able to do damage while moving was satisfying. That coupled with the fact that Wotw has such stringent gear/paragon requirements and complex playstyle with grouping density, etc means that many think the damage and clear potential should reflect the difficulty of getting the build going.
3. Saying WW should be a farming build would be okay if we had other builds that could compete, but we really don’t. Maybe with the modest buffs to SS and HotA we will in S19, but based on current testing it still seems barb will need better gear, higher paragon and gems to match what other classes can do with much less.

I went UE/CC DH in S18 and cleared GR 100 with under 750 paragon and no augments at all, only a few ancients, and gems in the 70s, some non ideal rolls, etc.

Meanwhile my IK HotA barb with full ancients with good rolls, 100 gems (remember I’m casual and mostly solo), augments in the 80s range on most pieces was struggling to do 102 with 1050 paragon on NS. At the casual low end, there’s a huge difference between barb and the other classes, even at torment farming levels.

[Free-1746]

Folks, we’re discussing the possibility that one or more of the “new” Rend items may be bugged:

A Barb Response to the Lamentation Nerf

What? Fat? She’s ready to compete in Nationals, mah dude. Look at her abs. You cray-zee. @ Pro: Dang, look at my abs. Impressive! Speaking of Rend, Ulma and I were comparing notes and we both feel that there may be a bug or problem with the new Rend items. Personally, I notice stacked detonations on hard-cast Rends, but not Ambos, and some WW ticks don’t seem to apply Rend at all. I suspect that Ambo Rends may not be stacking with Lamentation, or that Ambos is failing to apply Rends in cert…

Need testers to help solve. See the linked post for details.

@ElobaCarcen-2521

If people in this thread really, actually cared about balance, they should advocate foe one of the following:

Balance is a by-gone concern. We’re not experts on other classes. We’re Barb experts and players, and we advocate mostly for Barbs. Other class communities need to step up, organize, and do their own work if they want their classes buffed.

My stance has always been this. But that doesn’t matter.

If other classes want X, they need to organize and work for X.

It’s not our job to advocate for them, nor for perfect game “balance,” something that will never be achieved and, frankly, shouldn’t.

[Adrenaline-1529]

This is exactly why I will make a DH yet again.

[Scáth-2283]

@Free-1746

Folks, we’re discussing the possibility that one or more of the “new” Rend items may be bugged:

Don’t worry, they will address this bug, like they took care of the item issues of 2.6.6.

I mean, Squirt’s Necklace also got fixed with 2.6.7.

C:

===================================================

Won’t forget 2.6.6 PTR, all the items lacking buff icons to verify if they are currently active, how many stacks given, etc. etc. and we were supposed to test out if there are any issues with these items.

Like, yeah, sure I easily check second by second the damage numbers on screen - prepared with pencil and paper, I calculate if the buff is stacking, if it stays active.
(ofc, also counting in damage taken in regards of my invisible shield amount counter and all!)

#D3interfaceInformationalOverbloat

Stone Gauntlets was also easy to check in case of any circumstances - just get one hit after another and compare the character animation on next attack :>

PTR down, changes afterwards like this time again, PTR applied to live servers, “ISSUES! ISSUES! BLIZZ! ISSUES! HERE! THERE! AND THERE, TOO!”

Short moment of silence from Blizzard’s side, I admit, but soon™ afterwards, issues were confirmed and addressed by blizzard with the announcement of the PTR for 2.6.7 being live! (Oct 19)

I still remember how much I did pray that they will fix Squirt’s Necklace with the season launch (like a micro patch).

… and then I was hoping there would be a hotfix for it in the upcoming days of season (not over the weekend atleast, maybe monday! More likely Tuesday/Wednesday on maintenance though…), …weeks,… but actually knew and realized that even as a newly featured legendary power for this season, it’s gonna stay this way for its whole first season.

Was just worried that they even wouldn’t address this bug with 2.6.7.

Feeling right exactly the same way right now with Barbarians.

[ElobaCarcen-2521]

@insidious-1502

My take

your take is great. thanks for the detailed explanation.

@insidious-1502

Saying WW should be a farming build would be okay if we had other builds that could compete

@insidious-1502

Many love WW for nostalgia reasons of being an iconic skill from D2 barb

From what I’ve seen from this game, by D3 logic (or at least when compared to some other classes) WW shouldn’t be high clear.
My initial reaction was literally “WTF, they wanna faceroll with the AoE build. How come I don’t get to 140 with Multishot”.
But I completely understand D2 logic… and yeah, I agree WW should be buffed, so that Barb is not behind.

@Free-1746

Balance is a by-gone concern. We’re not experts on other classes.

same goes to you. tnx for the explanation.

[FX9-1512]

@ElobaCarcen-2521

ATM Rapid Fire seems to dominate. It’s more or less a Single Target Skill

It has an AoE although small. This is different from single target. With the small AoE it can hit at least ~10 monsters when there are many, which makes a huge difference. (Didn’t play much WD so I have no comment on dart.)

Now I’m interested in whether anyone else may think like you.

[ElobaCarcen-2521]

@FX9-1512

It has an AoE although small. This is different from single target. With the small AoE it can hit at least ~10 monsters when there are many

Same goes for WD Dart and Barb Hammer. They are all small AoEs.
But I did read someone explaining in detail issues with Barb, and I do believe WW should be adjusted accordingly now.

[FX9-1512]

@Free-1746

I suspect that Ambo Rends may not be stacking with Lamentation, or that Ambos is failing to apply Rends in certain circumstances.

Sounds a valid concern. I don’t have Barb gears (not playing it for a long time so most non-ancients were salvaged) but if you just want to test the 2 perhaps I can help later today with them in cube.

[FX9-1512]

BTW WW is also small AoE - I checked https://www.d3planner.com/game/63573/powers/Barbarian_Whirlwind#Script%20Formula%207

And if I understand it correctly the radius is 9, the same to grenade.

[ElobaCarcen-2521]

Last time I played Hammer and WW and enjoyed them was back in Vanilla. I did try WW in RoS and didn’t like it.
It wasn’t because of how of the AoE worked though. It was most likely the low DMG.
Or maybe it was, that I was lower paragon and I couldn’t dedicate enough affixes to area dmg… I really don’t recall what the problem was, but it was something along these lines.

What’s the highest WW clear as of current and with what Paragon?

[DIONGWON-1224]

@Edurty-11167

I am also waiting for that vid.

Or he could go beg darkpotato to do a vid for him

[FX9-1512]

@ElobaCarcen-2521

I was lower paragon and I couldn’t dedicate enough affixes to area dmg

This is not your bad. Area damage is confusing and hard to balance; it causes the server to lag, and enforces a not-cool playstyle - not killing every monster but having to group them and kill them together. I hope it can be removed in D4.

[Fuzzy-12814]

I know Im replying to an old post but talk about eating your words. Crus did do 150, more than one. Bazooka is still killing 5 minute 150s, and his 135 was ´´NOT´´ whirlrend

[anon93475338]

List of Severe Issues - Patch 2.6.7

This one’s important. Nerf Bazooka - You guys moved the timing around but the bug is still there. If you want to move the game away from speed 150’s you still have work to do on Wizard. The interaction between Archon and Starpact is clearly broken. I say that as someone who has played Wiz for several seasons in a row and used it extensively. It’s broken. We used it because you said it was OK for us to use. But we all knew it was too powerful. Either buff 2-3 other trash clearers to the same l…

[insidious-1502]

The issues you experienced are the same that the barb community wants fixed, and appeared to finally be on the PTR, but the removal of rend damage seems to have put us close to where we were.

[Fuzzy-12814]

@ElobaCarcen-2521

What’s the highest WW clear as of current and with what Paragon?

Last I looked highest WW is 127, dont know para though.

[ElobaCarcen-2521]

@Fuzzy-12814

Last I looked highest WW is 127, dont know para though.

Paragon is relevant… because if it was done with high paragon, it would indicate they are balancing the spec in a similar manner to Multishot specs… as in not a top spec.

[chris-11418]

top ww clear that is posted on the rankings is Bgstan. 127@5496para. That doesnt mean it is the top ww clear. Ask ulmaguest what his top clear is as ww. Pretty sure 127 can be done at 10k plus a bit easier. This is on NA servers only too. There is likely higher then 127 clear on other servers.

[Xenia-11250]

127 with 5500 paragon which tbh is still low… same with the 2nd WW barb 125 with 5400…then it drops badly theres almost no WW barbs…

on the other hand a 150 is completed like cake by the new sader set so theres that…

[Xenia-11250]

i think currently she is the top WW barb in all regions