Not much to do… except revel at our characters awesome end game gears. I used to look for ages. Sweeeet!
Until they fried my PSU obviously and then graphics card because i managed to work the PSU with me trusty hammer.
Speaking of looking at awesome things… in D4 why can’t i make this sword look like my SSSSSIIICK awesome looking wand? I could look at my wand for days. I play with my wand lots and lots and lots.
Some of these are for variety such as Bounties or Nephalem Rifts; if player were to run the same bounties or Rift at every sequence, they’d get burnt out. Some randomization are for slowing down the fast peaking progress or create sinks; such as rerolls for pushing player to farm, or bad randomization in Greater Rifts as a sink for keys.
Although, they’re all randomization, they serve different purposes.
Sadly you also need that to filter the players’ dedication. You can not pull the rug under them, at least not after you give them this abundant loads of drop rates by each update. When you loot enough material in half hour to sink those to the recipe for well over ten times; don’t expect developer to grant you a magical recipe to pay 10x the cost of regular recipe for guaranteed results.
Developer can not give you a power peak just because you are dedicated; balance does not work that way. If you are a dedicated player you go out there and earn it yourself, by progressing partially at every step. If you could get instant gratification, which was the way this game was treated with; you would lose interest really fast instead of pushing yourself to progress further. You wouldn’t need the pity of developer for instant results if you had the means to sit in front of your computer for longer than average in a grinding game.
Right, which is why I said:
Maps and objectives are a good example of where there should be some RNG.
Looking at cube recipe 2, on the average player gets an ancient 1/10 times. Paying 10x the mats simply ensures the player gets an ancient on the 10 try or reforging an ancient keeps its ancient status. Over a large sample, the results are the same. The difference is the latter simply has a layer of RNG removed to get the same results.
Again, they have many layers or RNG in the game for the sake of layers of RNG.
Don’t forget what you said earlier about Blizzard’s reason for all the RNG. Which is:
Before anyone leap in, this is NOT an excuse for you to link your non-Season profile full of Primals. Thank you. I’m talking about average experience here.
That’s why we have Primordial Ashes recipe added. You get guaranteed Primal quality item, maximized stats but randomized combination. You can’t even translate Primordial Ashes to Forgotten Souls, nor you would want to; but you want guaranteed Ancients with way cheaper cost. I wouldn’t say 500 Forgotten Souls and 50 of each Horadric materials would translate into 100 Primordial Ashes because you or anyone else said so.
That’s not consistent in the design. Not because it’s randomization for the sake of randomization, but because it is not balanced, nor consistent by the pattern of other recipes. Let along, keeping Ancient quality allow game to randomize the range of main stats, unlike Primal crafting. It’d be like trusting a Monkey’s Paw to not twist your wish.
The end goal of loot is scoring a very high rolled Ancient with the right rolls, since it’s more likely to happen in terms of possibility. Because, a random Primal you landed after salvaging thousands of Legendary items, has many random variables to be considered any good, including item itself. When you think that, picking and choosing which item you want to turn into Primal, is a boon and you already have that luxury.
Yet, system still pushes you to farm because it’s restricted, it can roll a bad combination and you can perform just fine without Primal or Ancients at every slot.
You can complain about Urshi and bad outlay of Greater Rifts, because those are meant to be time and key sinks but Cube is consistent on its own and it enforces one simple rule; “Town is lava. Stop gambling whole day and go out there”.
Which adds yet another layer of RNG and only affects 1 item you can wear.
How’s it a cheaper cost?? If I pay 10x the reforge cost, it would be the same cost as reforging 10 regular legendaries and getting one ancient. Not looking for cheaper cost, simply looking for a few less layers of RNG.
Right, which is Blizz’s design philosophy, jam RNG into every orifice in the game. Again, doing this does not make the game better.
Which is what I am suggesting, the only change is 1 less layer of unnecesary RNG.
Yes, for 1 piece of a 12/13 pieces of gear in a build.
The average and practice differ in the process. You may be ensured that something occurs with 1/10th chance, but in practice with a small sample size, it can land after 12 attempts or 20 attempts. The mentioned average of 1/10th only stands true for a large scale. You can not diminish and squish it down to ten attempts in practice, nor compare it directly.
In the practice, averages don’t meet the process in a synchronized way. When you craft a batch of ten Legendary items at once from Blacksmith, there is not a single established coefficient for guaranteed results. When you craft 10 items at once, you may “estimate” that one of them would turn out to be Ancient, but it doesn’t. You end up wasting more resources than what you bargained for.
I know it’s a slight stretch, but game will not give you pity points for not scoring any Ancient at the previous nine attempts then miraculously make the tenth result an Ancient. If it does this every time, then you have a pseudo randomizer, but game actually models total randomization by the help of a pseudo random number generator.
There is no way of comparing the 500 Forgotten Souls and 100 Primordial Ashes. You can’t turn one to another without copious amount of luck. By the rule of practice and averages not aligning together every time; I would say it’s cheaper to bash 500 FS instead of 100 Ashes. In case you want to keep the Ancient status with the chance of a Primal; Reforge recipe already offers the latter, and Primal craft skips to the end without spoilers.
While it’s nice, there are more variables to consider while suggesting something like that. Such recipes may need a limiter, and I wouldn’t know but inclusion of Primordial Ashes could be the one you are looking for. If you want item to be some sort of catalyst, I think only Ashes fit the description of this but a smaller amount could be required. Thinking of a heaping pile of Forgotten Souls and some Ashes could be the right call for this.
It’s at the judgment of developers but I wouldn’t expect anything to arrive at this point.
Rest of those could be really good Ancient items, which is actually the goal post of endgame. What are the odds of 1/400 average drop rate Primals to be good after you salvaged through thousands of Legendary items? Meh, pretty low. What are the odds of an Ancient item to be good after you salvaged thousands? Pretty good, I’d say. You loot them more often, and as a result they are more flexible on their stats while Primal items have qualities on very specific slots.
Or it can land on attempt 1 or 2. Some people like to gamble and beat the odds. I am not one of them. I am fine with them leaving the original recipe, just add the buyout option. Those that want to play a slot machine have the option, those that want less layers of RNG can choose that for the same statistical price.
Again, if I reforge 10 times it costs me 500 souls and I get 1 ancient on the statistical average. If I pay 500 souls to guarantee the roll to be ancient, how is that cheaper?
Right. I know how random works. I am simply stating that jamming many layers of random into every orifice doesn’t make the game better. Many times, it hurts the game.
Why? Just curious why we need layers upon layers upon layers of RNG. There are many, many other games with far less layers of RNG and the gearing process is just as fun or better.
Again, while Blizz may think otherwise, RNG does not always = fun.
Could be that all the layers, both good and bad, is what has kept the game alive and addictive and challenging. All the farming, the hamster wheel of activity, an endless source of dopamine for most players. It doesn’t hurt the game. It is the game (a core part of it at least). So in reality it only hurts the few players who grow tired of it and become despaired or burnt out.
(Note that I don’t totally disagree with you. What you say is quite true and meaningful from your perspective. I’ve also liked each of your posts in this thread).
Grade difference between materials; one may be very high grade but other is highest by rarity. Going by the drop rates of Ancients and Primals, odds are you will farm 480 to 500 Forgotten Souls and 50 of each Bounty materials, way earlier than scoring 100-110 Ashes. Neither, you have direct means of turning Forgotten Souls into Ashes, or Ashes to Souls.
If we are talking about in the context of Ancients and exclude Primal Ancients, then you can not ignore Primals are just 1/40 of Ancients in rarity by comparison if you were to make Ancients guaranteed with this recipe of yours.
I think this is a great idea but as I have said, the cost requires the right call and you shouldn’t have a button to “roll until ancient” or “give me a guaranteed ancient at the cost of 10 attempts only”. Only Primordial Ashes treating an item like a catalyst in the recipes, so such addition tips the rarity margins and ignoring practical measures differing from averages without the inclusion of it.
Randomization is not induced to hurt the game or make it “fun”, but slow down the progress and increase engagement over time. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying there’s more behind the veil.
You may hate the game for doing this but the reason developers did this was how limited the affix system has turned out, with abundance of materials available. You may not get what you want the moment you wanted it, but it also create this feeling of coming over the odds when you prevail. If they didn’t do this amount of randomization, the other alternatives would be creating as many sinks as they want to drain your material resources faster or cutting down the drop rates. Trust me, you wouldn’t like either model after this point.
Ya. It is one of those things that are different depending on who you ask. Some people can sit in front of a slot machine all day and have the time of their lives, some people will do it for a bit for a distraction, some people won’t touch them. For me, I don’t touch them.
For me, loot drops need to be random for the sake of the game. Secondary gear options should be there to curb the RNG and prevent players from getting burnt on the extreme negative end, and not simply add more layers of RNG. Looking at my non-season, I have over 60k fs, 30k of each bounty mat, 500k+ of dbs and regular crafting mats. I could easily sit there and burn the mats reforging and upgrading, but it would kill me to burn all those mats and end up with nothing.
Ya, that is why whenever I come up with a solution, I want to attack it from several perspectives. This is why I am not suggesting Recipe 2 should be replaced, simply have a buyout option added to give more choices.
Again, how is spending 500 FS for a randomly rolled cheaper than reforging 10x at the cost of 500 FS to get an ancient on average?
As for the FS to PA thing you keep throwing out there, I have never asked for such a thing and am curious what point you are trying to make.
And the same goes for the existing Recipe 2. Primals have 1/40 the rarity of ancients as ancients are 1/10 and Primals are 1/400.
And why not?
Recipe 2 will still be there. There are no shortage of people who will still use it as there are perpetually casinos full of people who are trying to beat the odds.
The additional recipe I am suggesting, would let people just pay the rate if they do not like the slot machine mechanics. As I have stated, I am not asking for a cheaper rate, simply the same rate. Adding a penalty to this, simply is pushing people towards the gambling method as it now is the cheaper option.
Well, it will only slow down the progress on everyone on 1 side of the bell curve, everyone on the other side will see increased progression. Over the long haul, the progress is no different with or without the randomization. As far as engagement, it is far more of a turn-off for me and entices me to play less.
Well, when I am using cube, Myriam, Urshi, I usually am pissed off when I finally get what I was looking for and knowing it cost me more or far more than the statistical average. When I actually beat the odds, I am not excited because I beat the odds, I am just relieved I didn’t get jammed again.
It is all a mindset and every person has a different mindset. Again, fun is different for everyone and more options to get to the finish line are always welcome IMO. I am simply asking for ways to earn my rewards rather than win my rewards.
Go in the game, Reforge ten times at once and count how often does it give you an Ancient after ten or less tries. Sometimes it will give you an Ancient with ten or less attempts and sometimes it doesn’t; there’s no constant ratio of results. This proves that 10x cost recipe for guaranteed Ancient is way more efficient.
This is why I keep pointing at the differences between averages and practice, because you want to compress the whole thing in a single contraption. You want the efficiency of a big sample size in a very weak single attempt.
You create a ten times more efficient recipe than that in an instant actually. People have abundant amount of materials at non-Seasonal and once such change have been made with only 10 times the cost of second recipe for guaranteed Ancients, they will absolutely exploit this lack of foresight. That will end up being a mockery of people who farmed their Primals in Seasonal.
Perhaps this recipe would be a more fitting addition to Seasonal Solo Self-Found only as it doesn’t carry over to non-Seasonal. I’d be down for that once the recipe cost has been tweaked slightly.
I don’t care much about this argument, but you’re a bit confused here.
Both options are clearly 500 souls per ancient on average. One is more variable than the other, but the average is the same.
I don’t think that way. I mean, I see you and Alexi’s point of standing too.
Just in my humble opinion regular recipe gives you that “500 FS per Ancient” efficiency ONLY at the expanse of performing for very large sample sizes. Say, repeating the second recipe for 2000-3000 times perhaps, would eventually give you that ratio. The suggested 10x recipe compresses the whole efficiency in one single attempt to give you the demanded result. That’s a very wild peak in my opinion.
Even if you think about it short term, as in “how many souls do I need to spend to get my first ancient”, the average is the same: 500. With page 2, sometimes you’re lucky and have to spend less than 500, sometimes you’re unlucky and have to spend more than 500. But on average you spend 500 before your first ancient. The other option just removes the chance of good/bad luck.
I don’t understand what your argument here is, and I honestly struggle to make sense of what you say. The efficiency is clearly the same, short or long term, just a little less RNG, and there is nothing wild here. 
As you use the Reforge, your average Forgotten Souls spent per Ancient item, supposed to fluctuate “around” the five hundred. If we are talking about large sample sizes, then the average is really close to that actual expected value.
Think this as a difference between getting your tax return from the office early or late; regular recipe is slower, but new recipe is really effective.
I think I needed to hear that… I hope this whole debate made some good feedback and they decide to put this after proper balancing. I know they still read here.
In the history of the game, there is a set number of people who have gotten exactly 1/10 ancients on reforge. Of all the people left, half have gotten better than expected results, the others have gotten worse. This is how a Gaussian distribution works.
There is no need for me to test anything. Sometimes I will get better results, sometimes I will get worse. That is how random works.
I am simply asking to be part of the statistical average because random on top of random with a side of random and random sprinkled on top with a big glass of random is not fun for me.
What the hell are you talking about? How is this exploitable? How does this have anything to do with Primals?
In general, Ancients roll horribly just as regular items roll horrible and Primals tend to roll horribly. If a non-season player wants a well rolled ancient, they can use recipe 2 and reforge an item 1000 times with all their mats, giving around 100 ancients, and maybe one is godly. With the recipe I proposed, the same player would use that recipe 100 times, giving them 100 ancients, with the same mat cost as the previous example and may get 1 godly ancient.
I am not asking that my proposed recipe roll ancients with perfect rolls or correct rolls, simply the way Recipe 2 works with 1 layer of RNG removed.
Right, and this is why I think it will be very efficient to pick your recipe OVER the regular Reforge despite Primal crafting recipe existing.
When you perform first batch of 10 tries, you may not even score an Ancient and may need to spend more until your first Ancient. Let’s say, first one landed after 12 attempts, and next one landed after, say, 9 attempts. You have wasted for a total of 1050 FS and 2 Ancients secured. And with this the average cost per Ancient becomes; 525 FS.
To pay up the extra 25 Forgotten Souls as a player in that example up there, you have to salvage 7-8 Ancient grade items or around 20 regular grade Legendary items with 1-2 Ancients in between them.
The average cost in small sample sizes will NOT be the exact 500 FS, but fluctuate around this value unless we are talking about large sample sizes. I’m telling you that regular Reforge recipe only grant you 500 FS average per Ancient, when you repeat it “enough times”; which is moot but you can guess that it could be around hundreds.
It can even dip under that average value at VERY rare occasions along the way for a short while, but it will not be the exact average you expect. Without risking the loss of extra FS, you can instantaneously get the result you want with your new recipe.
I honestly don’t want to waste your time or pull your leg. Know that, there’s a difference in our views akin to; glass is half full and glass is half empty. I believe the glass is half empty and you are the side that say the glass is half full.
I’m thinking that 10x cost recipe will be very beneficial because it’s a guaranteed result, and you believe the choices we could have made over the course of time will close any gap that I can bring up. I have doubts about that; this is my point.
By average, your 10x more efficient recipe may end up to have a higher average of scoring a Primal, compared to normal Reforge. Because guaranteed Ancient can not bounce down in grades. Item being eligible for augmenting and being complete junk, are really dry for most equipment slots.
In small sample sizes, yes. Game want you to go out there, farm Ancients and filter trash out. It doesn’t induce any recipe to tip the rarity ratio of Ancients and at the only exception it limits it to one item per carry.
I think developers should compare this new recipe with Primal crafting recipe, instead of regular Reforge. Honestly, there’s only one recipe that treat the item grade as a catalyst, eleventh one, and it requires a unique highest grade material. If it really justifies itself for a Quality of Life, it will be considered and in my opinion, it would be a welcome addition ot Solo Self-Found.
If it’s a truly random process, then this is EXACTLY how it would behave. You can even calculate the exact probability for each result.
I don’t know the exact numbers, using the ones I have seen flying around:
I understand the probability of an ancient when reforging is 10%.
So the expected value when reforging 10 itamzzz is exactly 1.
The probability of not getting a single ancient in 10 tries is (.9)^10 which is appr. 34.87%.
That means if you do this (reforge 10 times) 100 times (that is 1000 times over all), in appr. 35 tries of 10 reforge sets each you had gotten zero ancients.
But why do we have an expected value of exatly one when doing it 10 times? That’s because it can happen that you get more than exactly one ancient in 10 tries.
The probability of getting EXACTLY one ancient in 10 reforges is (10 over 1) [or 10 over 9, since that’s the same] times .9^9 times .1 which is appr. 38.74%.
That means the probability that you get more than one ancient in 10 reforge attempts is 100% minus the sum of aforementioned probabilities which is app. 26.4%.
So in my example from above with 100 tries at 10 reforges each, you would expect app. 26 tries where a set of 10 rerolls yielded 2 or more ancients.
But on average, those 1000 tries overall would yield app. 100 ancients.
And when you perform that first batch of 10, you can get 2 ancients in those 10 reforges, making it 250 souls per ancient which is far more efficient than my recipe. Does this mean my recipe should only cost 250 souls for a reforge? No.
You can’t make decisions on very small samples when it comes to random because the results vary. This is why you go with a statistical average. Theoretically, you could 100 reforges without an ancient, do you set it for that point? Theorectically, you could go 1 reforge and get an ancient, do you set it for that point? Of course no on both, which is why you go with the statistical average.
If you are going to go with the “no one will use Recipe 2” argument, simply go to a casino. They are packed with people trying to beat the odds even those the odds are worse than the statistical average.
How is it 10x more efficient??? If I hit the Recipe 2 button 400 times, on average, I will get a Primal and spend 20,000 souls. If I use my recipe 40 times, on average, I will get a Primal and spend 20,000 souls.
They only thing my recipe saves over Recipe 2 is time. And this is a good thing. Players should spend more time playing content rather than hitting a slot machine button.